James Webb Telescope Discovery with Guest Joel Garbon

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Welcome to the ranch Radio
podcast.

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I'm so glad to have Joel Garvin
back and thank you so much for

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joining us on the ranch Radio
podcast.

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How are you sir?
Well, great, Jim.

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Thanks for having me back on.
It's always a pleasure to talk

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to you.
And we always are covering some

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interesting topics here.
But people like you and they

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like our discussions about
things and I know that you and I

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have sort of that similar
scientific approach sometimes.

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But what do you what caught your
I about this whole thing with

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the James Webb Telescope and we
can go into a little bit of

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what, what the new reveal is,
but what caught your eye about

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it in the beginning.
And are you, are you, are you

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also a believer that the Big
Bang is nothing more than a sort

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of an atheistic approach?
Describing the universe?

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Well, for me, the big bang has
always been very intellectually

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unsatisfying, just the whole
concept that, well, it all

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sprang out of nothing.
And then the question of what

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came before the Big Bang
explosion never gets addressed.

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You know, I am a Scientist and I
think it's important that we use

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the rationale of science to try
to explain our universe.

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And, and the human Mission.
But this is something that is

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like the big elephant in the
room, right?

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What came before it, what came
before it and can't we as human

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beings which also you know it's
important to remember that

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scientists are human beings,
aren't we allowed to ask these

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bigger questions?
Like could there be a mind and

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intelligence behind the creation
of the universe?

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Does it have to just be about
mathematics?

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X and principles of physics.
And sterile, natural laws.

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Can't there really be a God
that's deeply embedded as the

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creator of the universe.
And I think the answer is yes,

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but why do we constrain
ourselves?

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I'm a scientist but I refuse to
constrain myself to just the

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scientific method.
I think it's it's really

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important is thinking human
beings who have a mom And in a

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spiritual endowment that we
bring and integrate Spirit into

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the discussion because it
doesn't need to be divorced from

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science.
And I've been really, I think

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fairly outspoken about that
through much of my career.

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And well I guess I'm one of
quite a few who were labeled as

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Mavericks.
We do tend to challenge dogmas.

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And this is, this is one of the
dogmas.

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The Big Bang Theory that I do
love to challenge.

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I think it really opens people's
minds to bigger pictures Well,

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we both know that the reaction,
the enlightenment, the

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enlightenment somehow freed, the
shackles of organized religion.

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In organized religion was was
totally against the idea of a

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natural evolving universe and I
think that the enlightenment

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took away from that, that there
had to be what they call the

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suckers Choice.
It was one or the other, it

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couldn't be both.
And we've suffered because of it

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because scientism today asserts
that there is no Divine mind

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that there couldn't be.
It couldn't be explained and

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therefore since we can't can't
comprehend it, it doesn't exist.

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The only thing that's exist is
what we can show that exists

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which is that the universe is
made up of atomic particles and

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we're now learning.
I think that even atomic

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particles aren't themselves
solid objects.

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So what makes them what?
Them, their impetus, their

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energy, their coordinated
ability in their circular

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motion.
So, even in trying to attempt, a

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materialistic, explanation of
the universe scientists

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themselves and will hear this,
at the end of the program,

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scientists themselves understand
that something could come along

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and completely refute that
theory or that hypotheses.

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And I think the James Webb
Telescope is revealing that very

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truth, which is at the The
universe is a lot older, it's

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not just 14 billion years old
and that not everything came

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from a singular moment.
So I think the validation that I

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that I can appreciate in this is
that many people who would

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otherwise be attracted to
something like the ranch a book

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or the idea of having a personal
relationship with a deity.

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Can't because science holds them
back, it holds them hostage it

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says you can't be a true
scientist.

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If Believe in non scientific
ideas.

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Yeah, that's a great Point um
and that constraint those are

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real Shackles On Us.
Making progress not just in the

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area of science but an area
other areas as well and it

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touches on this topic I know I
had presented to you the idea

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that it'd be great for us to
weave in this question to our

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discussion and that question is
does Dogma interfere with the

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pursuit of Truth.
And I believe the short answer

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is.
It doesn't have to, we don't

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have to allow our deeply held
beliefs to interfere with the

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pursuit of deeper Insight deeper
truths.

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And I think maybe maybe that's
kind of like a little bit of a

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springboard on why we might
consider why the reluctance to

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challenge these conventional
theories.

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You You know, if we look at just
a defen are dictionary

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definition of Dogma, you know,
one good definition.

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Is that a Dogma is a principle
or a set of principles laid down

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by an authority, has
incontrovertible truth.

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So it implies that, there's an
authority in there.

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Okay?
And it's so that really comes

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into play Because when we
consider where the dogmas come

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from and why, We tend to ascribe
to them a lot of it revolves

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around the authority.
So a Dogma may be propagated by

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an authority out of a sincere
desire to share a pursue a

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perceived truthful insight and
maybe there by uplift the

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society.
And I think we're most of us

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when we think about Dogma, we
think about religion and

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certainly there's some very,
very deeply held religious

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beliefs, that are true.
True, or relatively true and

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that are helpful to society.
But now on the other hand, Dogma

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may be propagated by an
authority, as an instrument of

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control and likely to advance
hidden agendas.

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Yeah, I think we got a lot of
those in our MIT, where Dogma is

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used as a control mechanism and
I think they've been coming more

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clearly into Focus for more and
more people.

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Recently I'll just use a few
quick examples you know the

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government propaganda of covid.
Vaccines as safe and effective.

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We have relentlessly heard that
safe and effective that has

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become a Dogma but it's clearly
untrue for anyone who has, you

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know, eyes to see and ears to
hear and has a brain.

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But yet that has been propagated
will clearly there's an agenda

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behind that.
That other would be where we see

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religious authorities that use
Dogma to literally sell

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salvation, right?
Well, that's that's kind of a

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gross Distortion of what
religious truths should be

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about.
And another one that I think a

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lot more people are getting
clued into is, you know, this

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scientific Dogma that you know,
climate change is solely due to

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greenhouse gas emissions. all
right, and that is ringing less

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and less true for those who like
to investigate larger

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possibilities, like, what the
heck's happening on our star,

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could that maybe have something
to do with, why the Earth seems

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to be warming, or people willing
to look and examine that, that

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there's a lot of material being
sprayed into our skies

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routinely, And that actual
geoengineering is happening

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right above us.
Every day to influence our

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weather.
People want to look into that

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boy.
They're going to really have a

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rude awakening, because that's
something that's real and that's

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been going on for a long time.
I'll just leave that at that.

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So, anyway, there's, you know,
various dogmas.

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They, you know, they occur in
religion, they occur in science,

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they are Her and politics, and
in Social culture, you know,

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even in social media.
And and I would maintain that,

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you know, each of us has dogmas.
I certainly do.

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I ascribe to certain dogmas Jim?
I imagine that that you do as

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well.
I'll give a few of my own and

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then I'll ask you to comment on
maybe a few of your own gym if

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you do.
I would say some examples of My

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own dogmatic beliefs, like in
the arena of religion,

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definitely would be God exists.
Jesus is who he claimed to be,

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there's life after death.
I mean, those are kind of some

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basic religious dogmas I have
and in the science Arena, you

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know, I believe the Earth is a
sphere, I believe gravity is

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real You know, in politics.
I think that the probability of

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a politician becoming corrupt
increases with the number of

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years and office.
Inversely proportion, k

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something I believe is true, is
that work done?

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Well, elevates a man's dignity
and conversely when a neighbor

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Man lives off the fruits of
another person's work.

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He destroys his dignity so men
who are capable should not beg.

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And so those are just some of my
dogmas.

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You probably have some of your
own there.

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I'm curious.
Sure what would be a few of your

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shoe?
Well, I think you hit the nail

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on the head, my biggest Dogma.
If I subscribe to something

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where I have a settled belief
about it, which I think, Think

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for me is the definition, it's
just something that would be it

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would be nearly impossible to
shake.

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My belief is in the authenticity
of the Rancho book as a

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revelation.
Sometimes it contradicts my

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Earthly Viewpoint.
Because what if I'm wrong,

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right?
There's always that element of

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Doubt but I think I've made
enough of a not only an

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emotional but an intellectual
commitment to it that it would

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be hard.
You would have to disprove it at

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this point.
The proof for me is already

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there it Self-revealing, it
satisfies my intellectual

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curiosity and doesn't compromise
my intellectual Integrity.

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So that's why I can be dogmatic
about that.

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In fact, the Dogma there is so
profound that I wish everybody

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else would be dogmatic about it
too because I could see how it

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could help other people to know
for example that this isn't the

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only life we have if you if you
were told as a young child that

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you are only going to go through
12 grades.

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And then that was it.
It was all over.

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There's nothing else.
How much effort would you put

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into your education?
Well, you wouldn't put much

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because you would know that it's
futile.

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So a lot of people are walking
around right now as we speak and

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they're they're behaving as if
everything is ultimately futile.

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There is no afterlife, there is
nothing else to behold.

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People are dogmatic about that.
People are dogmatic about the

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fact that religion or
specifically Christianity is Add

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their dogmatic there
anti-religious and the same way

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that an atheist is dogmatic
about his belief.

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He believes that he is right and
that there is no God and so he

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is offended.
He's in out when you get to the

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point where you're offended that
other people don't subscribe to

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your behavior that's
sociopathic.

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And and so, you know, having
said that I totally agree with

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you there science has, you know,
you asked a very important

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question and you made a very
State, a very important

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statement and the reason the
Dogma is dangerous where you you

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have to have that little escape
hatch, right?

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Is for this.
Yeah, the way the the

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environment today in science in
medicine and Healthcare, is that

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people who go against the grain
will be unfunded, they will be

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cancelled, they will be removed.
From those who are, for example,

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in favor of climate change, you
will not get a A sponsored or

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funded or a research project
funded if you come out against

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questioning climate change,
that's a fact.

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It's the same with a lot of the
doctors during the pandemic.

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They were not allowed to
prescribe therapy to patients,

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who had covid until their oxygen
level drop by believe below. 70.

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That's, that's horrible to let
somebody get that sick before.

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You treat them in the, by then
the cytokine storm is so out of

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control.
There's no way to save the guy

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except to shove a bunch of tubes
down his throat.

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Nope, for the best and we
created that environment from

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Dogma, dr.
Fauci, I'm sure he's incredible,

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man.
I'm sure he loves his dog.

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I bet you.
He's a nice as husband in the

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world, but he suffers from
Dogma, he was so dogmatic in his

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approach.
He was willing to shut down the

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entire world to prove that he
was correct.

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So science isn't a fault.
The scientist is a human.

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And we're all humans, and we're
all capable of failure.

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In fact, failure is our middle
name.

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It is the it is, it is not, it's
not the exception, it's the

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rule, you have to work at it,
you have to work at being a

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human being, you have to work at
being loyal, all these things

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you have to work at because
they're not inherently in us,

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their achieved by the decisions.
We make based on the principles

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that we hold to be true.
And in my example, I think I'm

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going to be held accountable for
what I do here.

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So I better not Screw it up so
and that's all I've got.

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Yeah other than that I have no
opinion on the matter.

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00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:49,100
That was really well spoken and
you were really ringing my bell

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and I'm sure for many other
people too.

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And you brought up several
several key points here.

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And one of those is really, you
know, so why why do people

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abandon The free-thinking
Pursuit Of Truth and refuse to

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challenge Dogma one word
challenge their own.

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Their own dog, must you brought
up some of these things.

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I'd like to peel that back a
little more, you know, the fear

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of ridicule and rejection and
even persecution.

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That's that's part of that the
fear of loss of social or

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professional status.
You mentioned like the medical

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doctors who've been afraid to
speak out Out against the

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00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:43,900
obvious obfuscation of data and
this wrong-minded propaganda

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around the vaccines just it was
which is actually destructive.

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Not just wrong-minded the fear
of loss of funding like you

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00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,500
brought up, which certainly
happens in the scientific field

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00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:02,300
where scientists see that that
attached a certain dogmas like

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you know, climate change and and
Big Bang Theory.

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Like that.
There's a gravy train of funding

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attached to that, they don't
want that to be disrupted in and

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hurt their personal fortunes.
And I would say, loss of funding

255
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can also occur inside families,
where there might be, you know,

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children who who are kind of
dependent on the parent.

257
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And if they fall out a grease
with the parent because now they

258
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have a change in mind of some
dogmatic thinking that the

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00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:37,900
parent might might have well,
I'll maybe that threatens the,

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you know, some of the gravy that
flows to the child, even with

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pastors like you, you certainly
probably had some of the

262
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experience when you've tried to
introduce the ranch of book as

263
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they consider is a considerable
new Advanced and understanding

264
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of religious truth, when you try
to introduce that to pastors of

265
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churches, you know, even though
they may have Intellectual

266
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horsepower and the actual
personal desire to want to take

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a look at it.
They might be afraid that if

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they do that, it's going to
disrupt their career.

269
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Okay.
And then I really harsh reality.

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Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is.

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And I think in general, we see
that, there's a risk of version,

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00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:30,600
there's this, you know, play it
safe mentality.

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That three thinking is risky and
quite frankly, new insight It's

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can be upsetting to one's
worldview.

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It really is.
There's a risk and intellectual

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risk here at can be kind of
disorienting when you come upon

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something, that makes a lot more
sense than the tenants that you

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may have held to that point in
time.

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And then all sudden you get this
as big explosion in here.

280
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,900
Your mind about.
Whoa, what did I just come upon

281
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:05,600
here?
This this makes a lot more

282
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:06,400
sense.
To me.

283
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,800
Also, I think that that in in
general, we're seeing a lot of

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laziness, a lot of intellectual
laziness a reluctance, to invest

285
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,900
the time to read and research
and contemplate in disgust with

286
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:24,800
other people, these big ideas
and I and then I would say, kind

287
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,800
of like the the last reason, you
know why people might be

288
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:35,500
reluctant to, to, to challenge.
Dogma is a lack of humility.

289
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,600
And just a reluctance to admit
their limited knowledge, limited

290
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,400
understanding or that they
perhaps made error in judgment,

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00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,700
and we all do this.
You know, we all have some

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00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:51,300
reluctance, you know, to admit
that we don't know at all.

293
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:55,600
No one likes to admit that
they've been mistaken, you know,

294
00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,000
but there's a degree of maturity
that has to come into play here.

295
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,300
And you talked about it is
human, you know, we're human.

296
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We have to bring the human
Packed into this big picture

297
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:12,400
discussion.
You know, humans are not

298
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:16,100
perfect.
We make mistakes we fail and

299
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:21,100
it's how we grow and so we can't
be afraid to acknowledge that.

300
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:25,300
Hey, we don't know it all and
that we make mistakes in that

301
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:27,600
we're capable of learning
something.

302
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:34,300
That is more true relatively
that provides insights that are

303
00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:37,600
extremely valuable.
Not just to our understanding

304
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,700
but how we navigate this world
individually and collectively.

305
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:47,700
Well on the in the dogmatic
world it is the intellectual

306
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:50,700
Conformity.
That is the easiest path and

307
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:54,200
that explains why?
Usually a majority of the people

308
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,100
will take the easiest path and
it's in all Realms of life.

309
00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,300
It's easier to let somebody else
make the decision because then

310
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:04,500
you're excused from being
responsible for it.

311
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:06,600
If it turns out to be an
incorrect decision.

312
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:09,900
So, for example, what you were
saying about climate change?

313
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:13,000
I think I'm old enough to
remember when the climate It was

314
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,500
about the air, the water, and
the land, and not polluting and

315
00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:21,000
and making it so that those
three areas would remain clean.

316
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,600
That was a very pure Noble and,
and, and well-focused idea.

317
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:30,500
But then sprang into this
climate crisis.

318
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:36,000
And the the interesting need to
count carbon and we have this

319
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,000
fascination with counting things
and measuring things and, and,

320
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,100
and pumping data into computers.
And having it tell us What's

321
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,100
going to happen?
It's sort of like this this

322
00:21:45,100 --> 00:21:48,200
belief in the Oracle, right?
If we bring the Oracle enough

323
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,500
information than the Oracle will
tell us what to do well behind

324
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,900
the Oracle are a few very
deceptive people and they have

325
00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:01,600
figured out a way to basically
instill fear into people, fear

326
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,500
is a great motivator and I think
the coronavirus pandemic really

327
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:09,700
exposed how fearful people can
be and how easy it is to get

328
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:13,100
them to do things when they are.
In fact, fearful Their own

329
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:15,800
safety.
I have relatives that don't talk

330
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,300
to each other anymore because
one doesn't want to get it

331
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:20,300
covid.
Vaccine and the other already

332
00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:23,300
did even though the one that got
the vaccine is already had

333
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:26,000
covid.
And the one that had no vaccine

334
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,600
got covid, who do you think has
the better immune system?

335
00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:33,400
Yes, yeah, yeah.
But that's the world were living

336
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,900
in today right now.
You know, we got people that are

337
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:40,200
just at odds with each other.
So there is a lot there.

338
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:44,900
And you know, there is good
Dogma, I think there's good

339
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:47,100
Dogma.
If you have Dogma that you

340
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:51,200
believe that family is the most
important thing in Civilization,

341
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,900
that's good dogma.
And you're going to fight to

342
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,800
make that work and it is a
fundamental I think a

343
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,800
fundamental provable statement
which is that family is at the

344
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,800
core of civilization without the
family.

345
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,500
Without the stability of the
family, everything else falls

346
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:13,200
apart and in the orange book,
unlike Can many religions which

347
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,900
does not not pay a lot of
attention to the family, maybe

348
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:20,500
the Bible does, but at the root
of it, barrage.

349
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:24,500
The institution of marriage is
the great civilization civilizer

350
00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:29,800
of humanity, and it's now under
a frontal attack and part of

351
00:23:29,808 --> 00:23:32,400
that is by removing religion and
Faith.

352
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,600
It makes it much easier to
transform this.

353
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,500
The person from a member of a
family to a member of a state.

354
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:44,500
And I want to let that hang for
a little while, because that's,

355
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:49,400
I think the dichotomy that were
in religion is like, for

356
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,700
example, my wife was watching
something last night.

357
00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:56,100
It was a gym and something about
Jim Baker, Jim Baker, I mean,

358
00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:59,400
that's the guy from the 70s and
I'm thinking what is Netflix

359
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,100
doing now with this guy?
Jim Bakker, 20 years later.

360
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,700
How is that even relevant?
Well, it's relevant because it

361
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:09,600
helps build up The Stereotype
that people who are religious

362
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,000
are stupid or they're weak.
Yeah right.

363
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,900
Yes.
So they keep that or predatory?

364
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:15,700
Yeah.
Yeah.

365
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:19,100
Or predatory.
They canceled some other.

366
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,800
I can't remember what it was but
it was some college canceled.

367
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,400
It was something to do with
Father's Day or something.

368
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,300
It had something that was
patriarchal and they just

369
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:33,500
cancelled it.
They said we can't do that

370
00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:36,800
anymore.
This it if it highlights the dad

371
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,000
not all people have Dad's you
know it's like okay so that's

372
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,600
what we're headed anyway.
But yeah.

373
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,000
No, I do want to share this with
you before.

374
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,900
You know, we go on to our next
topic but I'm reading a really

375
00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:53,600
good book called the psychology
of totalitarianism and I think I

376
00:24:53,608 --> 00:24:59,900
told you the name of the guy
Joel he is, I think he might be

377
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:02,700
a you beer, you know, I said,
okay.

378
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:09,000
Because it's it reads just like
it, it has a lot of parallels to

379
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,700
paper 195 and the chap.
Materialism.

380
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:16,700
So go read it and get the book
if you can but it kind of lends

381
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:18,100
to what you were saying earlier
about.

382
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:22,900
Why do people it seems to me
that there are three kinds of

383
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:25,700
people in society.
There are the kinds of people

384
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:29,800
who just crave security and they
want, they want to be taken care

385
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,100
of and they'll go along with
whatever the authorities what

386
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:37,300
you were talking about dogma and
authority and and whoever's in

387
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:39,700
charge.
They trust those those people

388
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,300
because again they don't want to
be Held responsible it's easier

389
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:45,700
just to agree.
Then you have another subset of

390
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:48,800
people.
Say 30 percent who don't

391
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,500
necessarily agree with the The
Authority but they don't want to

392
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,600
make waves and they don't want
to be singled out and they're

393
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,200
conformist but they're not
blindly following.

394
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,700
They just would prefer not to
be, you know, going against the

395
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:06,600
grain then you have that other
twenty to thirty percent who are

396
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,800
probably like you and me, and a
lot of people who read the

397
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,500
Urantia book, where the
outliers, where the The question

398
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:14,700
authority.
We're the ones that ask the

399
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:18,000
second question.
Well, how come you know, and

400
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,200
that's I think the greatest
strength of those people is that

401
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,600
they're not ever going to give
in to this Mass formation

402
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:26,600
psychosis.
You know that dr.

403
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,200
Robert Malone talked about.
Yeah you know.

404
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,200
Yeah we are always going to be.
Let me tell you something.

405
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,800
I the Arab people could free so
many people from this Mass

406
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,700
formation hypnosis.
So we hear about because it

407
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:44,700
would This is why we go back to
the James Webb Telescope.

408
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:48,700
The James Webb.
Telescope tells us that the Big

409
00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:51,600
Bang isn't true.
What?

410
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,200
What are the implications of
that?

411
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,600
Well, it must mean that the
Universe has purpose.

412
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:03,600
It's infinite, it can't.
You can't have all of this order

413
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,500
and disorder, unless there's
something behind it.

414
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:10,500
Something would have to be in
charge, whether it's the

415
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,900
unqualified.
Absolute Loot, whether it's, you

416
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,100
know, God the Father God, the
son, and God the spirit,

417
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,100
probably it's the same, it to
me, it's all the same, you know?

418
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,700
And so, I just want to sort of
bring that to the table.

419
00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:29,300
How do we get people to to be
freed from the shackles of

420
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:35,500
materialism?
Yeah you know I think that when

421
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:39,500
we ask that question no does
Dogma interfere with the pursuit

422
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:45,200
of Truth.
And we look at we look at that

423
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,200
question, very personally, like
you told you told a personal

424
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,600
story, you know, I'll share a
personal story.

425
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,900
You know that reflects it's
really hard to challenge our,

426
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:04,500
our personal belief systems and
continue to grow, be be willing

427
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:11,100
to, to examine and, and, and
maybe change our belief system

428
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:15,000
in the You have new information,
and here's an example here.

429
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Okay?
So do you Rancho book?

430
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,900
I've been studying it since
2005, you know, found it

431
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:25,200
extremely compelling, it
answers, a lot of questions, and

432
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,100
I believe it was not authored by
humans, okay?

433
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,100
And, and that's consistent with
what it states.

434
00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:38,900
Now, I have a very dear friend
of mine Who is skeptical of the

435
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,900
Urantia book?
Hester has not read the book is

436
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:51,000
read, maybe 10% but also has has
invested a lot of time in

437
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,700
Reading what Skeptics of the
Urantia book had to say about

438
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:58,700
it.
Particularly Martin Gardner who

439
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:03,500
I know Jim your you would be
familiar Martin Gardner and his

440
00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:07,100
book that he had written that
attempt at the debunk.

441
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:10,700
The Rancher book claimed that it
was authored by Celestial

442
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:13,500
beings.
Well, this dear friend of mine,

443
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:25,800
in a well-meaning desire for me
to not be duped for lack of a

444
00:29:25,808 --> 00:29:32,500
better word, really challenged
me to read gardeners book and I

445
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:36,700
felt some internal reluctance at
first to read the book is 440

446
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:40,700
page book and I thought well you
know maybe this is just going to

447
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:46,200
be a waste of my time because
you know, I felt You very firm

448
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,000
in my conviction.
That the Urantia book is, you

449
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,600
know, is authored by Celestial
beings.

450
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,400
But, but I agreed to do this.
I agreed that I would read the

451
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,800
book and I did, in fact, I just
finished it last week after

452
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:05,100
after several weeks of reading,
and it was a long read and, you

453
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:12,400
know, but I learned a lot, you
know, I learned a lot about the

454
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,000
deficiencies for one thing.
In Gardner's logic because you

455
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:24,100
know he argues certain points
quite reasonably but he also has

456
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:31,000
flaws in his logic and other
areas and totally ignores some

457
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,000
real important aspects.
Can you give any example rent?

458
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:41,300
Yeah, yeah.
So here's here's I would say

459
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:49,300
some of the most, the most
obvious logic deficiency that

460
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:53,800
came to me.
He is really, I say, nearly

461
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,500
obsessed with the proposition,
that Sadler, William, Sadler,

462
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:09,200
Did Heavy editing of the Rancher
material and and his position is

463
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:15,100
that Sadler likely added a
number of Sadler's own personal

464
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:19,800
positions or philosophy into the
material that that he at least

465
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,000
did that.
Now, what's interesting is that

466
00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:30,500
Gardener clearly has a very high
regard for Sadler, he really

467
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:35,900
Notes Adler's extraordinary
intelligence.

468
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:39,800
He was a prolific writer and
lecturer.

469
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,700
He does not at all doubt
Sadler's honesty and sincerity

470
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:53,200
but yet somehow thinks that
despite you know holding Sadler

471
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:58,100
up as this very sincere honest
intelligent Discerning man that

472
00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:04,700
he then basically a saying that
Sadler's a plagiarist and abroad

473
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,900
and was deceptive.
That is really inconsistent

474
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:13,200
logic.
Now in his near-obsession was

475
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:20,700
Sadler and and in saying, okay,
here's all these parallelisms in

476
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:26,200
the Urantia book with a lot of
Sadler's own writings, which

477
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,800
indeed is true.
You can when you examine the All

478
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,200
isms between what is in the
Urantia book and many other

479
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:41,100
books, whether you want to
consider them the human Source

480
00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:45,200
materials that the Rancher book
claims out rights as they drew

481
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,500
from a number of different human
sources of information.

482
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:55,200
Sadler, likely in a lot of his
writings was likely a source of

483
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,700
some of that material as well,
but even if you just took

484
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:05,400
Gardner's position, That that
these were Sadler's own

485
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,300
insertions into the Rancho book,
as a form of editing and getting

486
00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:15,900
his own personal view across
what Garden or ignores.

487
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:22,200
Totally is all of the unique,
totally unique material that's

488
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,200
in the Urantia book, that you
can't find anywhere else.

489
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:34,700
And and that comprises a, an
enormous volume of this 2000

490
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:39,600
page book is totally unique
information, but yet he doesn't

491
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:45,000
comment on that, and I find that
intellectually dishonest, okay?

492
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,200
He focuses on one area where he
thinks he can make a good

493
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,800
position for his, his debunking
goal.

494
00:33:56,300 --> 00:34:01,200
Judy Punk and discredit the
Rancho book, but, but in doing

495
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:06,500
that, he's totally ignoring all
of these amazing insights.

496
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,199
And even some scientific
predictions that are in there,

497
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:17,500
not to mention, just the
beautiful and coherent

498
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:20,800
philosophical.
Information.

499
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,800
That's in the ranch of book.
He just ignores all of that and

500
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:32,699
to me that just rings as really
intellectually dishonest.

501
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:34,100
Yeah.
Like and I've heard the

502
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:38,699
criticism is he went in without
an open mind and made the

503
00:34:38,708 --> 00:34:42,000
assessment, that it was a
debunker bubble and then just

504
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,500
proceeded there with.
I would also say it's curious

505
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,400
curious that it would take him
440 pages to make his Point.

506
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:53,600
Because if it was that easy to
debunk, it could have done it

507
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,400
into 20, you know.
So he went to Great Lengths to,

508
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,700
to attempt it.
I agree with you.

509
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:05,200
I think the the fact that it
shows up in the SEO when you do

510
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,500
a Google search on the ranch, a
book, and Martin, Gardner's book

511
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:12,900
shows up typically in the first
group of, you know, pages and

512
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:14,400
links.
Yeah, it is.

513
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,400
It is a, it is unfortunate
because I think a lot of people

514
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,600
get their first impressions.
I know I know.

515
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,400
Several in my own life, who did
just what you said.

516
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,100
They heard me talk about it.
They went looked online and they

517
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:28,600
came back with an unfavorable
opinion.

518
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,300
And I said, what did you
actually read the book?

519
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:32,000
Know.
So, okay.

520
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,500
Well, you know, that's a winding
process if that's how casual you

521
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,200
are about.
Something that could potentially

522
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,000
be something as Grand as the
Urantia book says.

523
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,800
And you're not even willing to
pick it up and spend five

524
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,700
minutes.
That's when I learned a long

525
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:49,600
time ago that most people don't
really read the Bible, most

526
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,900
Don't really read the book of
Mormon unless they go to church

527
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:55,500
and the priest says, okay open
up to page this.

528
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:59,200
And this most people don't even
know why they believe and what

529
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,300
they believe in my opinion
because they're basically just

530
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:04,000
care.
It's either evolutionary

531
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,100
customary.
But you know, I would say, less

532
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:10,800
than 10% of people.
Typically will really take the

533
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,800
time to get to know what their
religion is all about.

534
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,200
So that's just my assessment.
Yeah, and I think that that's

535
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,800
part of that earlier point.
About an intellectual laziness.

536
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,600
So you know, a reluctance to
invest the time to read research

537
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,500
contemplate and discuss.
You know, and I brought up my

538
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:34,100
personal example there because
you know this this is something

539
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:41,800
where, you know, I had to make a
pretty sizable effort to read

540
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,800
this book that I could have just
dismissed, you know, the

541
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,300
gardener book and speaking
about.

542
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:49,600
Yeah.
But yet I did I did it.

543
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,800
Did it because of friend, a dear
friend challenged me to do this.

544
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:56,800
Hoping that it would kind of
burst my bubble about the

545
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,400
Urantia books, often tisza T,
you know?

546
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:05,700
But I did it and so now, I'm
like, okay, so now I not only

547
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:09,700
have read that your aunt, your
book in certainly had discussed

548
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:14,400
it with many people discuss the
book, but now, I've also read

549
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,800
the book of the probably the
most renowned critic and

550
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,400
skeptic.
The Rancher book.

551
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,400
So, I've got that in that full
information.

552
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,900
So, now, isn't it fair to say
that?

553
00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:30,600
I have a more rounded
understanding of both sides,

554
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:35,900
just like you brought up before
that, you know, why is it that

555
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:40,600
so many Christians who are, you
know, in the conventional, you

556
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:47,000
know, churches and and they have
perhaps a good grasp or maybe a

557
00:37:47,008 --> 00:37:52,200
moderate grasp of the biblical.
But yet, they're afraid to even

558
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,200
examine the Urantia book.
Okay.

559
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:58,800
But is it wouldn't it be fair to
say they would have a much more

560
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,400
rounded perspective and
understanding of all sides if

561
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,700
they were to read both because
one of the things that I see

562
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:12,100
with your Ranch, your book
readers is many.

563
00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:15,700
If not, most of them are pretty
strongly familiar with the

564
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:16,800
Bible.
Yeah.

565
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:24,300
And and so they Have the benefit
of having been exposed to a much

566
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:30,700
wider range of information from
which to to assess what makes

567
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:36,500
the most sense about our
universe about the best way to

568
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:41,300
navigate human life too.
And to contribute to our society

569
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:46,400
and to, to learn about God, and
our relationship to the Creator

570
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,200
and and our destiny.
You know, I think when the Or

571
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,400
you are open to examining all
sides.

572
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,400
Whether as a religionists
weather, just a citizen go on

573
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,800
about his business or a
scientist or a politician or

574
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,400
whatever.
You are always better served by

575
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,900
exposing yourself to the broader
range of information.

576
00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:14,200
I think that's being
fair-minded, and I think it's

577
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:19,800
being mature and I would love to
see more maturity in Our

578
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:25,900
society's approach to, to
information and wisdom and

579
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:27,400
understand.
Yeah.

580
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,000
And I think so, and I agree with
you and I think the way it's

581
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,000
going to happen is not by, you
know, they're the earlier

582
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,200
approach I think was one of the
earlier approaches of the

583
00:39:37,208 --> 00:39:40,700
Urantia book was to give it to
people and just have them read

584
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:44,200
it and I've tried that and it's
completely ineffective,

585
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:48,700
completely, I bought the book
for a dozen family members

586
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,000
friends, Over the years, they
jumped, you know, I'm even said,

587
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,800
start here or start there and
they read it, and they don't get

588
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,800
back to me.
I gave it to my daughter, she

589
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:07,000
had in her car for six months
drove around with a book, and I

590
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,500
will give it to your boyfriend
and he, and he had it for a

591
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:12,100
while.
He actually tried to read it.

592
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,800
He gave it back to me and says,
I don't understand it.

593
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:21,400
So it, it takes a curious mind.
And I think you've got to want

594
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,000
it.
You've got to be thirsting for

595
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,900
it.
It's just like anything else.

596
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:28,200
So our only method really is to
do what we're doing, which is to

597
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,000
share it when we can wet
people's appetite.

598
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,400
Like Jesus said, don't hit him
over the head with it.

599
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:36,600
Find out good.
Go to their level find out.

600
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,800
What would entry exam if they
seem so spiritually longing or

601
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,700
spiritually frustrated or
depressed?

602
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,300
You know, hey, if I might have
something for you might make you

603
00:40:48,308 --> 00:40:50,000
feel better.
So Mike That.

604
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,600
But, you know, it's going to
happen.

605
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,900
It's eventually so many people
that I've talked to Joel.

606
00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:01,800
Recently, have expressed some so
much optimism that we're going

607
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,000
to get through this horrible,
horrible, secular istic,

608
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,600
ideological struggle, that we
find ourselves in more much more

609
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,100
pronounced in the last five
years than it has in my

610
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,100
lifetime.
And I think you'd agree with

611
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:16,100
that.
So, but I only but yeah, I do

612
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:18,900
hope it's the case.
Jim, I hope that that really is

613
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:20,200
the case.
Yeah.

614
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,700
So what are you working on?
Now, anything interesting in the

615
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:25,000
Rancho realm.
I know you, you know, we've

616
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,200
still got your your wonderful
PDF on my website.

617
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:32,700
The Joel Garbin presentation
that you did to a group of all

618
00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:34,800
people ufologist.
I think it's still up there.

619
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:38,100
And are you doing?
Are you involved in anything?

620
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:40,000
Are you going to any
conferences?

621
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,200
Have you been back from
anything?

622
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,500
Anything interesting in your
world?

623
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,800
Well, I have have not yet
attended a conference, it's

624
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,900
something that I would I would
like to do.

625
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:58,300
I was I had given some thought
to the the Melchizedek oriented

626
00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:03,500
conference that was just a
couple months ago would have

627
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:07,000
enjoyed that but just dinner
didn't work out in the schedule.

628
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:16,500
More of what I've been.
Thinking about is how to assist

629
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:23,300
with the problem that the young
men in our society or having

630
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:31,000
with this General abandonment of
religion and how that has

631
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:37,100
resulted in so much nihilism
self-destructive behaviors.

632
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,400
That are really harming you know
that Demographic of our society.

633
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:49,800
The young men on been given more
thought to how the, the, the

634
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:55,700
teachings into your Rancho book.
Could help to uplift the

635
00:42:55,700 --> 00:43:02,000
understanding of young men and
help them to re-engage in

636
00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:09,300
curiosity about reality and
light and what is behind all of

637
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:14,400
this, you know, start to To ask
the big questions, you know

638
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,300
about, you know, where did it
all spring from?

639
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:21,600
Is there a Creator?
If so what was the mechanism is

640
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:27,300
there assistance to us?
Is there a presence with us that

641
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:32,900
comes from that Divine author?
And of course, you know, the

642
00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:35,900
ranch book has a lot to say
about that about a divine

643
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:38,800
presence with us, right?
Yeah.

644
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,000
Who have young, man.
Were 22.

645
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:46,100
Have this as a tool as a guide
book and I'm not suggesting as

646
00:43:46,100 --> 00:43:49,400
a, as a dogmatic Authority or
anything like that, because I

647
00:43:49,408 --> 00:43:53,200
think there's there's a real
resistance to hearing anything

648
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,300
like that because the young men
already have pushed away, you

649
00:43:56,300 --> 00:44:00,400
know, most all of the
conventional, you know, religion

650
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:03,900
in the form of churches and
authorities and and all that

651
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:06,400
kind of thing.
So so I've been given more

652
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:15,700
thought to how can, how can I
perhaps Have a an attractive

653
00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:19,900
open discourse, with
intellectually curious young men

654
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,400
to have them consider another
way.

655
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:30,400
And I do think the time is
right, where there is a real

656
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:37,600
need for a revelation of Greater
truth that the young men can

657
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,200
assimilate.
And now I'm, I'm single Out the

658
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:48,100
young man because I am a man
myself and I, you know, women

659
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:51,200
have a lot of their issues, the
young women certainly have their

660
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,300
issues but I'm not I'm not a
woman, I certainly have

661
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,500
daughters and granddaughters.
So I'm immersed in the world of

662
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:04,100
women, but but my focus is more
appropriately on a young man cuz

663
00:45:04,100 --> 00:45:08,700
I can mentor young men because I
know the experiences that young

664
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:11,700
men have to go through in order
to Become a man.

665
00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:16,100
And to become you do mature and
actually contribute to society.

666
00:45:16,100 --> 00:45:19,500
I have something to say about
that private grind it to figure

667
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:22,300
out how to how to weave the
ranch book into that.

668
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,700
I'm hoping now that the the
covid craziness is finally

669
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:33,500
seeming to subside that maybe I
can start to set up some type of

670
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:38,800
of forum or something like that
to to at least start to

671
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,600
experiment with this.
This concept with young men.

672
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,000
Yeah, you know, reminds me of
the Boy Scouts.

673
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,100
You remember remember that
organization and then it became

674
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:53,200
completely politicized and it
destroyed it but you know, the

675
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,500
Boy Scouts and organizations
like that boys and girls club

676
00:45:56,500 --> 00:46:00,300
today do a lot towards grabbing
some of those especially the

677
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:04,600
at-risk youth.
And and in my limited

678
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:08,100
involvement with them.
I find that those organizations

679
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,300
can be life-changing and if you
can Change, you know, just one

680
00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:15,400
or two lives, you know, that
that's a miracle.

681
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,700
So I wish you well in that
endeavor.

682
00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:22,000
And I am convinced that you will
have no trouble finding a spot

683
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:23,400
to do.
What you want to do there?

684
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,900
That sounds wonderful.
Thanks.

685
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:31,500
Yeah.
Well, this is a few minutes to

686
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:36,900
look, go back to the James Webb,
you know, Revelation and its

687
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:40,700
relation to the big bang, you
know, you know, religious

688
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,200
Scientific and cultural progress
is generally made by

689
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,500
free-thinking.
Okay.

690
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:52,200
And not by dogmatism, you know
we look at Jesus himself,

691
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,500
certainly there was a
free-thinking man.

692
00:46:56,500 --> 00:47:02,100
And you know, it's it's
interesting when we consider

693
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,900
progress and even with the
original cast of say about

694
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:10,400
progress, you know we we know
that progress is slow when it

695
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:17,900
Hers incrementally, you know and
and generally the ranch of book

696
00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:22,400
seems to feel their seems to
express that slow incremental

697
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,100
progress is appropriate and it
avoids big disruptions to

698
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:30,500
society.
Now that doesn't feel very

699
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:36,900
satisfying for those of us who
tend to be Maverick thinkers and

700
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,700
in are very open to new
information.

701
00:47:41,100 --> 00:47:45,700
In that we are willing to
abandon our own dogmas.

702
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,700
In the face of information that
makes more sense to us.

703
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:54,900
But I would also point out that
the big advancements, the big

704
00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:59,500
leaps forward, those do indeed
come from Bold and Maverick

705
00:47:59,500 --> 00:48:03,500
thinking that is unafraid to
challenge dogma.

706
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:07,400
And there's big rewards that can
come from that, but it occurs at

707
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,700
substantial risk, you know,
Jesus was big.

708
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,100
And bold and free thinking, and
he took enormous risks.

709
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,300
But they were huge rewards that
came out of that, you know, he

710
00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:25,300
challenged Dogma, he challenged
Authority, you know, he, he was,

711
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:32,000
he was unafraid to face what
became, you know, rejection and

712
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,000
ridicule, and even physical
persecution to the death.

713
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,700
But yet the huge rewards that
came out of that.

714
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,000
You know, part of our challenge
in discernment.

715
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:51,400
Is where do we support the
incremental ism?

716
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:56,300
Where do we support the big
bold?

717
00:48:56,300 --> 00:49:01,300
Maverick moves, you know,
because I believe that there's

718
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:03,800
there's a blend.
There's an appropriate blend

719
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,400
between those two.
Especially right now, we are in

720
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,500
these pivotal times and I think
we all sense it.

721
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,400
We may not be able to quite put
our finger on it.

722
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,900
You and I and certainly others
who you talk to have been trying

723
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:25,300
to to to figure out, okay, what
is You know, what's coming out,

724
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,900
how right?
We navigate this?

725
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:30,600
These are Big important
questions.

726
00:49:31,100 --> 00:49:36,400
So I wanted to just kind of toss
that out there before we just

727
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,300
kind of round things up with
with, you know, stepping back to

728
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:45,400
the Big Bang Theory here Jam.
So, do you have any any

729
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,000
thoughts?
Yeah, sure for mentalism versus

730
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,700
a big, big moves.
Well, the, the James Webb

731
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:53,900
Telescope is a metaphor, too.
Two, because think of what it's

732
00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:55,600
doing.
We're applying all of our

733
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,600
technology to open our eyes to
reality around us.

734
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,300
And we're seeing things now that
we've never experienced before,

735
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,700
and we're having to Grapple with
things that our ancestors, never

736
00:50:07,700 --> 00:50:12,000
even dreamed of and, and the
Enlightenment.

737
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,200
What I'm getting is a general
sense of disenchantment, we put

738
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:21,400
all of our faith in Our Hope and
our trust in people who told us

739
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,900
that this was The Age of Reason
and they were going to take care

740
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:28,300
of us and they were going to fix
all these problems and you look

741
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:32,000
around and it just ain't so, it
ain't, it ain't it.

742
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,900
There are so many things that
are broken and, and, and staying

743
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:41,400
on a spiritual Direction here
and not getting political.

744
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:44,400
People are upset and they're
anxious.

745
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:49,300
And, and it's unfortunate that
there are Mechanisms that will

746
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,100
take advantage of that
anxiousness and that fear that

747
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:56,700
people have and use it to try to
control their behavior or just

748
00:50:56,700 --> 00:51:01,800
to control things period.
But despite all of that, this is

749
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,400
the, the miracle, the spite out
of, they're going to lose their

750
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,000
going to lose because that's not
the way there's an old saying

751
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,400
Joel.
Life is what happens to you when

752
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,800
you're busy making plans.
The the dictates of man are

753
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,000
never going to over Ride the
progress of God, we will get

754
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,100
through this.
The importance is for us to push

755
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:27,900
back against that which we know
is wrong or that we know is

756
00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:31,500
unhealthy or though we know
takes away their free will of

757
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:34,200
human beings.
We were meant to be free.

758
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,900
We were endowed by our creator
to have the ability to make

759
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:43,100
choices moral choices.
And so, I think, you know, tell

760
00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:45,300
you, I've talked to a few people
who think the end of the world

761
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:47,400
is coming.
They're predicting.

762
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:50,100
No, I've talked on the show
about the cross and the

763
00:51:50,100 --> 00:51:53,400
intersectionality of the crosses
and the solar eclipse, it's

764
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,800
going to, you know, the
transpire, are we in a period of

765
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,200
tribulation?
There's all these things going

766
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,300
on and what it tells me is that
there is something going on,

767
00:52:02,700 --> 00:52:05,800
can't put our finger on it, but
it was the same way During the

768
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,400
period of Jesus time.
If you think about it, you had

769
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,100
all these conflicting political
forces, these religious forces.

770
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,000
So something exciting is going
to happen and I have faith in

771
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,300
the process.
So, That's what tempers me from

772
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:24,800
getting too anxious and yeah you
know that's that's where I well

773
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:29,100
find my refuge.
Yeah well stated certainly

774
00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:34,400
there's an acceleration that's
occurring right now and there's

775
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,500
tension like you said the birth
pangs.

776
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:41,500
Well when it comes closer to the
delivery of something totally

777
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,900
new as in child from the
mother's womb, those

778
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:48,300
contractions, get closer and
closer.

779
00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:52,700
More through our intent.
Yeah, and we seem to be in that

780
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:59,200
type of period coming back to
the Big Bang Theory and why I

781
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,500
forwarded you what I did on
this.

782
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:09,200
This commentary by a researcher
named Eric learner little bit

783
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,900
about Eric.
I Came Upon Eric learner,

784
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:18,300
probably about 10 years ago when
I was running a non-profit.

785
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,000
It called the new energy
movement that focuses on the

786
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,300
Breakthrough Energy
Technologies.

787
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,900
Eric learner is a plasma
physicist.

788
00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:35,100
Who has been investigating a
type of breakthrough energy

789
00:53:35,100 --> 00:53:42,500
technology that is is Fusion
based on fact, he calls it Focus

790
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:50,200
fusion and it uses high-energy
plasmas to cause a fusion

791
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:57,900
reaction between hydrogen atoms
and Boron atoms to, to produce

792
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,100
enormous amounts of energy.
Doubt, harmful radiation.

793
00:54:02,100 --> 00:54:07,000
So it's doing some of the things
that are analogous to what

794
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:14,000
happens inside a star where a
star produces enormous amounts

795
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:20,500
of energy from the fusion of
hydrogen and and with the

796
00:54:20,500 --> 00:54:23,700
byproduct being primarily
helium.

797
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:30,200
So he's a brilliant man,
brilliant researcher, he also

798
00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:34,500
Also was the author of a book
called The Big Bang never

799
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:40,700
happened and in his
understanding of plasma and his

800
00:54:40,700 --> 00:54:47,400
own theories about that.
The Universe largely is, is

801
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:54,300
comprised of plasma and in him,
you know, just kind of his own

802
00:54:54,300 --> 00:54:58,900
observations of the research
that's out there that has been

803
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:02,500
gathered by astronomers.
The astrophysicists, you know,

804
00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:06,800
he became convinced you know,
decades ago, that the Big Bang

805
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:11,100
Theory is not supported by the
observations and by the data.

806
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:17,200
Well when the these recent
images from the James Webb Space

807
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:25,100
Telescope came out in July Eric
just a few weeks ago, released

808
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:33,800
this article that said hey
folks, These images are so

809
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:40,200
highly, disruptive to The Big
Bang Theory that many of the

810
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,900
leading theoretical, physicists
and cosmologists are having near

811
00:55:44,900 --> 00:55:50,900
panic attacks, because it is
totally disrupting their life's

812
00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:54,800
research.
It which has been all about

813
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:00,500
being advocates for Big Bang
Theory and and he references,

814
00:56:00,500 --> 00:56:05,700
you know, several different
researchers and and in their own

815
00:56:05,700 --> 00:56:09,500
words saying, you know, how how
they can't sleep at night.

816
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:13,500
Yeah, I think they're wondering
if they've wasted their careers

817
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:19,100
just following a total fantasy.
And that's right.

818
00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:23,600
I said it really interesting
relatively short article that he

819
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:30,600
wrote and, you know, one of the
one of the threads that led from

820
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:36,100
that for me was I kind of did a
little more investigation and I

821
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:43,000
found some of the videos and
commentary by one of the leading

822
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,200
us theoretical physicist and
cosmologist, his name is Paul

823
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,600
Stine Heart and Paul is very
high-profile.

824
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,000
He's the Albert Einstein
professor in science at

825
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,800
Princeton University.
Well, Paul steinhardt, he had

826
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,700
been one of the leading
Advocates of Big Bang Theory and

827
00:57:02,700 --> 00:57:08,700
then last year he totally
disrupted that whole scene when

828
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:13,400
he gave a presentation that
said, we must abandon Big Bang

829
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,500
Theory because it just is
meaningless.

830
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:22,300
No, really.
And he has come to Advocate.

831
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:27,500
What has come to be known as the
big bounce Theory, not Big Bang

832
00:57:27,500 --> 00:57:33,400
Theory, but the big bounce
Theory, it entails, Universal

833
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:38,200
expansion, and then contraction,
right?

834
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,300
That sound familiar.
Of course operation work.

835
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,900
Yeah.
Part of the big bounce Theory.

836
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:50,900
It includes the possibility of a
Goal expansion and contraction

837
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:56,800
of the universe in space itself.
Well, guess what, folks that is

838
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:02,100
really analogous to what the
Urantia book says about space

839
00:58:02,100 --> 00:58:08,200
respiration that there is a
cycle of universe expansion and

840
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:15,300
contraction not a big bang.
Okay but this very beautiful you

841
00:58:15,300 --> 00:58:21,500
know, natural And consistent
cycle of it's a supposedly in

842
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:24,900
the your answer book.
It's a 2 billion year, cycle

843
00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:29,000
billion years of expansion
followed by a billion years, a

844
00:58:29,008 --> 00:58:35,800
contraction and it's well
articulated in the Urantia book

845
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:41,700
but to see here is yeah,
probably if, you know, if not

846
00:58:41,700 --> 00:58:46,700
the leading theoretical
physicists in the u.s. certainly

847
00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:52,900
one of them. just saying big
bang out the door, big bounce in

848
00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:57,400
the door and it's just startling
and it's very disruptive and

849
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,800
unsettling to so many of these
hundreds or perhaps thousands of

850
00:59:02,500 --> 00:59:08,500
brilliantly intelligent
scientists who are now wondering

851
00:59:08,500 --> 00:59:14,200
if their whole livelihood and
their funding Is going to be

852
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,800
coming to an end, but this is
why you're not really hearing

853
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:23,900
anything about this because
it's, it's so unsettling and so

854
00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:27,800
disrupted, they don't want the
media to talk about is now, I

855
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,600
think it's, I think it's
wonderful.

856
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:33,200
I've been looking forward to
this for a long time, like you.

857
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,100
When I was young, it just didn't
make sense and they kept moving

858
00:59:37,100 --> 00:59:39,700
the number back.
And I thought, well, you know,

859
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,800
this was even before I started
reading, the Urantia book, it's

860
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:43,900
just too.
Seem right.

861
00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:47,200
And then when they started
layering, everything was based

862
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,900
on one principle idea, which is
the universe came into existence

863
00:59:50,900 --> 00:59:55,300
on its own and it was 14 billion
years ago because that's as far

864
00:59:55,300 --> 00:59:58,600
back as we can see.
And that premise alone, just it

865
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,500
was not intellectually in my
opinion, intellectually,

866
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:04,700
satisfying.
So and I think that's a good

867
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:06,700
place to end it.
I think it's great that it's

868
01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:10,700
happening and maybe the next
time we talk will get more, you

869
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:13,100
know, maybe they'll be more
articles about it, that we can.

870
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,300
Talk about, but it's definitely
going to shake up the

871
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:20,000
astronomical community and it's
going to force his to

872
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,900
re-evaluate all the way going
back to Einstein.

873
01:00:22,900 --> 01:00:26,500
And his general theory of
relativity which brings to mind

874
01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:31,100
that that felt that wonderfully
clever quote in the ranch a book

875
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,300
where the author say something,
akin to don't let your dabbling

876
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:39,600
is room with relativity confuse
you thank.

877
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:41,700
Thank you.
Thank you for having me on.

878
01:00:41,700 --> 01:00:45,900
This is been a really fun.
And stimulating conversation and

879
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:48,300
I think an important and
relevant one.

880
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:52,200
So just thank you again brother.
It's always a joy to talk to you

881
01:00:52,300 --> 01:00:56,200
you to and Joel Garvin who has
been on go back and listen to

882
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,000
some of the earlier podcast.
They're absolutely wonderful to.

883
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:01,800
And we thank you and we'll talk
to you again real soon.

884
01:01:01,900 --> 01:01:05,000
We thought we'd start with the
questioning, the mother of all

885
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,300
theories.
The Big Bang science is very

886
01:01:08,300 --> 01:01:11,700
own.
Genesis story 1:1 in the

887
01:01:11,700 --> 01:01:13,800
beginning.
There was an enormous band.

888
01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:38,400
Now, of course, like any
physical Theory.

889
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,400
I would have guard the Big Bang
as being provisional tomorrow.

890
01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:46,400
That's even yesterday.
Know something could come up

891
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:54,700
invalidate.
We also have to explain what

892
01:01:54,700 --> 01:01:58,200
gave those initial conditions,
what gave the Big Bang itself.

893
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:02,100
So in, in that sense, I would
say that our standard model of

894
01:02:02,100 --> 01:02:06,600
cosmology, although correct in
in a certain regime, it's an

895
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:07,700
incomplete Theory.