Science and The Urantia Book - With Marjorie Ray

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Welcome back.
And if you are new to the

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podcast, we talk about the
Urantia book here on these

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Urantia Radio Podcast.
An exciting series of papers

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that discuss cosmology, science,
history, and philosophy in a

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book that asserts the existence
of a personal God and also

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includes the extensive life and
detail of his son as he lived on

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our world 2000 years ago.
So welcome to the Urantia Radio

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Podcast.
In this episode, we're going to

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talk with longtime reader
Marjorie Ray, a scientist by

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trade and who has an extensive
history in multiple sciences,

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including microbiology, as well
as being involved in the NASA

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space program and other assorted
scholarly accomplishments.

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While we discuss the science of
the Urantia Book, Marjorie will

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also be the host of the upcoming
Scientific Symposium slated for

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November 6th, 2025 in Chicago at
the Urantia Foundation and also

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on Zoom.
We'll get that information as

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well as a general discussion
we'll have about the different

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sciences in the Urantia book and
how it stacks up with today's

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science.
So sit back and relax as we have

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our conversation with Marjorie
Ray, this time up on the Urantia

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Radio Podcast.
Marjorie Ray is part of this

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year's Urantia Scientific
Symposium, which we're going to

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talk about here.
Marjorie, it's good to have you

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here.
We should say that Marjorie has

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a science background.
She attended the University of

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Alabama, grew up in the South.
Now she lives in the Northwest.

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She discovered the book in 1975.
Of course, the Urantia book.

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Welcome to the program.
How are you?

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Oh, thank you, Jim.
I really appreciate this

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opportunity to talk with you
about the Scientific symposium.

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I've been involved in it since
Ralph Zayer reinstituted it a

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number of years ago.
Anytime anybody wants to talk

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about science in the Urantia
book, I'm I'm there because I

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is.
Well, that's one of my favorite

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topics next to talking about
Jesus.

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So yeah, we're we're right in a
good place.

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So yeah.
I've had some interesting

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conversations over the years
with various people.

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Some who I think have spoken at
previous symposiums, one of them

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that comes to mind is Philip
Calabrese.

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I don't know if you had an
opportunity to.

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Speak Oh yeah, yeah, Oh yeah.
Known to Phil.

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We're we're it's a really
incestuous group that sort of,

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we say in contact people that
have been involved in it.

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Let's talk about that.
Be part of that.

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Yeah, I'm glad to be part of
that group.

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Tell me a little bit about this
year's symposium.

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Is it going to be in person this
year or as with COVID, doing it

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over Zoom and tell tell us about
the event.

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OK, we're going to do a hybrid
meeting this time.

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The 1st 2 that we did, which we,
the plan had been do it to do

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them every three years.
The 1st 2 that we did, they

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originated at, at the foundation
and, and you know, we all came

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to the foundation and did our
presentations and did all of our

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discussions in the, you know,
big forum room.

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But then when the pandemic and,
and Ralph did those two and at

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the end of that second one, he
asked me if I could take over

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for doing the organizational
part.

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And but the unbeknownst to us
was that the pandemic was going

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to happen, you know, and so the
only way we could really do it,

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because travel was just way, way
too difficult was to do it

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totally virtually.
And that was a real experiment

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because we were using a new Zoom
platform and all this sort of

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stuff.
So we learned a lot from that

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one.
We all the way and we've got

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some really good critiques.
But this time we're going to do

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what a lot of study groups, you
know, actually do is, is have

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hybrid meetings where they may
have members that have moved

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away, but they still want to
participate in the group.

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So they'll get together and have
their group meeting and then

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people will Zoom in because they
all have, you know, some sort of

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set up at the meeting.
We're going to do the same thing

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at the foundation.
We're going to be in the forum

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room, which is now a big Zoom
room.

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So that, and it will allow
people like Nigel, instead of

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having to fly halfway around the
world and be just so jet lagged

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to come, you know, to the
founding.

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They'll be able to zoom in and
do their presentations.

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But some of us will be at the
foundation and, you know, any

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other participants that are that
they'll be able to hear if they

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want to, you know, zoom in and,
and join the group so that we'll

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be able to have some good, you
know, good discussion about the,

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the, you know, the different
papers that are going to be

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presented.
We, we ask that people, you

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know, that we're going to the
proposal process is that between

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now and the 15th, if you contact
joanne@urantia.org, she will

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send you a kind of a format for
your proposal.

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It's, it's not real complicated,
but we do, we do need to have a

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kind of an idea and then we have
a, a committee that will oversee

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all of them and read everything
and, and then we'll accept, you

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know, some, there's only 10
slots because it's, it's pretty

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intense.
You, you give a 45 minute talk

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and then you have 45 minutes for
discussion.

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And so, so you, you know, it's,
we only have the 10 slots other

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and, and you can only do so many
of those in a day just because

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it's, it's very, very intensive.
And the, the people that are

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chosen to participate, you'll
be, we will, you will share your

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stuff with your other
participants ahead of time so

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that they can possibly formulate
questions based on your, you

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know, how much information
you've given them up to that

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point.
And so we will originate at the

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foundation.
But people that are, you know,

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we have participants from Europe
and then Australia and Canada

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and they, they'll be able to
zoom in without having to

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travel.
Then some of us will travel to

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the foundation.
I will travel to the foundation

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and some of other people that
live close and want to come and,

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and be part of the, the, the
group that you know, gathers

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there that you know, that'll be,
that'll be great because you,

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you know, you get to have a lot
of personal interaction that

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way.
And so it's, it will, after you

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send your proposal in on the
15th, we'll let you know by the

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1st week or so of May as to
whether your proposal has been

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accepted.
And then we give you a timeline

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as to when you need to, you
know, have your, your

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presentation ready.
There are a lot of people that

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like to rehearse, particularly
if they're zooming to, to with

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the technology.
And so we offer rehearsal times

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for, for people if that they
want to, you know, do it or if

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they're worried about their
slides or something like that.

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We give them an opportunity to,
to work with our team to, to get

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it in a form that that is, is
easy to understand and their

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graphics are good and things
like that.

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And then the, IT starts on
November the at the found, it'll

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originate at the foundation, but
it starts on November the 6th

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and it goes until noon on
Saturday, November the 8th.

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And, you know, we're, we're
hoping this, this hybrid sort of

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format will encourage a lot of
people that are far distant.

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And the travel may have been a,
you know, an obstacle in the

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past.
We've removed that obstacle now.

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And we're hoping that even we'll
get even more proposals.

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And it's, it's not that somebody
writes sincerely, they don't

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know, write a bad proposal.
It's just that we do have the,

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the kind of the theme.
Every one of them has had a

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theme.
And this one is evolution of

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human knowledge 100 years later,
because we know from from Garge

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Avison and Maryland Kulakis
delving deep into the history of

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the Urantia book, that they
first started getting

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information around 1925.
And so we are 100 years in since

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the 1st when we were beginning
to get information from our

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unseen friends and our
revelators.

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And so there's a lot that's been
happening in human science.

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And of course, we know that
there are inconsistencies and

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they tell us they're going to be
inconsistency scientific and

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that it would need to be updated
because they're not going to

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give us unearned knowledge, OK.
And so we are going to look at

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this 100 years and hopefully we
get proposals on papers that,

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you know, where things were
maybe discussed in the Orange

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Book we have are coming closer
to what aligning to what they

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say or things that seemed very
obscure before are now becoming

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very, you know, much clearer to
us.

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Yeah, I want to delve into that
too, for I, I know that there's

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a fair amount of people who know
very little about the Urantia

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book.
And this podcast serves as a as

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a bit of a study aid, at least
I'd like to think it that way.

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So let's talk about the
importance of the science in the

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Urantia book, because like you,
I've always been fascinated by,

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for example, the story of the,
the the six Sangik races, which

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is in contemporary archaeology
or anthropology.

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That means nothing.
There has never in my, and I

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read as much as you about any
differentiation about this idea

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that there were the andonics,
the original human beings

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stretching back 997,000 years
ago.

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Andon and Fonta, and this is
according to the Urantia book.

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They founded the modern humans.
They were the first to achieve

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wisdom and and the ability to
pray and that distinguished them

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from their animal cousins.
They decided to take their life

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into their own hands.
They journeyed north and they

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founded the endonic race.
For 1/2 a million years, the

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endonic race spread over the
northern climates.

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That's what the Urantia book
says.

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That's a summary of the
narrative, and it wasn't until

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the sand geeks appeared on the
stage some half a million years

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later in this Swahilik valleys
of Nepal, that you had the six

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colored races who then migrated
outward.

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Now, I don't want to go through
the whole story, but reading

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that in 1935, many people would
have said, well, it's possible.

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Reading it in the year 2025, I'm
still amazed that our science

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has still not caught up to the
Urantia book as to exactly how

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we came about having multiple
different colored races with

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skeletal types that are
different, the mongrels and all

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the various types of human
beings.

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What do you say to the Urantia
narrative and to someone

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listening who has no knowledge
of any of this?

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How close is it?
For example, are the Denisovans,

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which is the term for the You
know the is it?

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Am I saying it right?
The Denisovans, right?

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These are.
Yeah, right.

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Are they?
That's the way I pronounce it,

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anyway.
Yeah.

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Are they the Andana?
Are they the Andonites?

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That's as a as an example.
They are or they're very, very

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you know, they're they're in
that that group.

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They're OK that that may well be
it and you know it it it's

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really interesting that you
bring up the thing about the

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Sangitz, because like you, I
have been amazed that we haven't

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gotten a little bit further on
on on that that that front.

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OK, that we can't, but you have
to look at at what all the

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archaeologists and the, you
know, the the anthropologists

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that yeah.
And and all of that that are

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looking back in time.
There are so many levels of

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civilization.
I mean, we're not thinking in,

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in terms of a million years when
we're looking at, I mean, we

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haven't gotten that far back yet
really.

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You know, we're not that they
they're still talking about less

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than than 1/2 a million years
ago in a lot of in in most

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cases, in a lot of cases.
And they they so so we still got

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to get back a lot further than
we're really looking at now, you

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know, because I mean, when they
they think of olden times, it's

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it's not even anywhere on the
scale that they talk about it in

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the Urantia book.
OK.

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But yeah, you have to realize
that that that's a way far down.

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You know, we know about the
geology folks know about the

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different eras of that, but
they, they're, they're not

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necessarily placing humans
exactly, you know, back where

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they are.
And they keep finding, I mean,

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this is the thing that I, I find
really interesting is they keep

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saying, oh, we found a new
civilization.

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Oh, we found another new
civilization.

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You know, it, it's, it's, it is
this sort of thing where we get,

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we're getting closer and closer
and, and we're moving toward

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that.
If you want to say it's a

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00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:51,280
target, but we're still somewhat
removed from it, you know, and

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there are certain discoveries.
I think that will be, you know,

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00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,720
made.
Maybe, I mean, I'm 75 years old,

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00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,440
maybe I'm during my lifetime,
maybe not where they'll rethink

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00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:09,280
about, you know, I mean, they,
they, the, the idea that, you

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00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,840
know, where everything comes
from or, or, or even where it

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00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:20,120
like the, the Sangit's, they
haven't placed that where it

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00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,680
says it is in the Urantia book,
you know, because they haven't

231
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,480
really asked that question yet
very much.

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And so it, it's going to be just
like anything else, the

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00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,560
evolution of our knowledge as we
get better and better, we, we

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00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:42,480
develop better and better tools,
we make more and more and more

235
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discoveries of what's on our
planet that things will, you

236
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:55,480
know, become more understandable
and explicable as we go further

237
00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:01,120
back, because that's going to
inform the stuff that's more

238
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,200
recent also OK, about how it got
here.

239
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,680
But really, if you think about
it, we've only scratched the,

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00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,680
the, the surface.
You know, I think the oldest

241
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,640
archaeological dig I was added.
And is it in Ignacio on the

242
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:23,000
Adriatic in Italy, They
continually been digging there

243
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,600
for like, you know, only less
than 200.

244
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,080
I think it's less than 200 years
now, or maybe it's right at 200

245
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,280
years.
That's not, you know, a lot of

246
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,960
time yet for us to have, you
know, do I mean, they, they,

247
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,080
you, you, yeah, yeah.
And so there's and there's just

248
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,440
so much because I mean, there
was an explosion at times when

249
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,280
when tribes were moving, you
know, different groups were

250
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,200
moving north or they were moving
S because of the, you know, the

251
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,440
the different ice intrusion ages
and things like that.

252
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,800
You know, they start finding
these like, Caucasian people in

253
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,920
northern Mongolia and they have
no explanation for, you know,

254
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,839
it's things like that where if
you read the Urantia book, it

255
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,599
makes a lot more sense why they
find some of these these things.

256
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,359
That's the reason I find things
like Gobeki techies so

257
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,359
amazingly.
Yeah, interesting, you know,

258
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,160
because.
But by the Urantia book, we kind

259
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,840
of understand what that could
possibly be, you know, and if.

260
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,520
I know it correctly.
I think it's in the paper.

261
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,280
They time it to Goblecki Techie,
which was of course this

262
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,840
underground structure that they
discovered highly complex

263
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,760
architectural finds.
And the deeper they go, the more

264
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,720
advanced the structures become.
And you can correlate that to

265
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,920
the section of the Urantia book
where it talks about the last of

266
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,880
the Andites, which coincides
with about the time that our

267
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,760
current archaeologists believe
that Kablaki Tepe was was

268
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,720
erected or constructed.
There's another example here

269
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,520
where the migration of the Red
race, the Urantia book specifies

270
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,200
that about 80,000 years ago,
that was when the last of the

271
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,120
remnants of the Red Race made it
across the Bering Straits before

272
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:16,480
it fell.
But our current paleontologist

273
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,720
only date the migration.
It's going back maybe 15 to

274
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,200
30,000 years.
Is science too dogmatic?

275
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,200
Now you've hit on a totally you
know, a great scientific

276
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:35,160
question is that if you are, it
has to do with how science

277
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,360
actually works.
OK, I'll make a recommendation

278
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,720
of a, a books read.
If you're really interested in

279
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,280
how science works, there's this
great professor at Columbia

280
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,280
named Stuart Feinstein.
And he, he wrote this to well,

281
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,520
he's written two books, but his
first one was the title was

282
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,160
Ignorance.
And then the subtitle is what

283
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,520
drives science.
OK and explains to you how how

284
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,920
science works.
He's a he's a really

285
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,480
interesting.
I had a colleague at, at at

286
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,720
Columbia who actually taught in
one of students, one of Stuart's

287
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,080
classes.
And his class is a lot of people

288
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,680
go to Columbia, they sign up for
the class and if they get into

289
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,920
accepted into the class, by the
time they're a senior, they're

290
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,320
very grateful.
But anyway, what he does is he

291
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,480
invites really major scientists
to come and talk about not what

292
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,240
they know or what they discover,
but what they would like to

293
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,680
know.
In other words, where their

294
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,640
ignorance is what drives them is
the thing that they don't know,

295
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,040
you know, and that's what they
talk about, not what they've

296
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,480
done, not what they, that, you
know, their, their current

297
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,360
theories on anything, but just
the things that they that are

298
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,240
driving them to want to, to
know.

299
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,680
And, and they have no clue, you
know, they're, they're, they're

300
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,000
just trying to figure it out.
And so it's not like a it's,

301
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,400
it's really a very interesting
idea.

302
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:08,640
But that being said, he explains
in that book somewhat about,

303
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,880
about dogma, about science
dogma.

304
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:19,160
And you have to realize that.
You know, science buys in to a a

305
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,800
theory and they they, they kind
of, you know, all jump on board

306
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,200
on it.
And and so then if you're

307
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,040
basically a scientific heretic
and you go outside of that and

308
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,800
you challenge that you're,
you're really swimming up

309
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,800
against a really strong current.
OK.

310
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:44,520
But it's like, you know, if
you're really understand how a

311
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,560
scientist is supposed to do that
you're always supposed to be

312
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,640
withholding.
In other words, you always, you

313
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:57,120
know, withhold a thing that, you
know, it could be disproved.

314
00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:00,200
And I mean, actually the way
science works is that you're

315
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,880
supposed to hypothesize a theory
or put one forward and then try

316
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:10,160
to disprove it about how it
doesn't work instead of, and

317
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,440
this day and age we tend to,
because of funding and stuff,

318
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,640
try to prove, you know, prove
stuff.

319
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:22,440
And so it's not exactly.
The scientific method right

320
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,960
because.
Right, right.

321
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,880
You're not when you're with,
when you know, when you're

322
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,520
withholding and you put forward
a theory and try to disprove it,

323
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,720
then you're you're pure
scientific method.

324
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,440
But that's not how science
really works.

325
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,040
So they've been a lot of that is
because of funding issues and,

326
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,200
and people having and, and so a
group of scientists that are

327
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:48,520
working in some area will marry
themselves to a dogma that and,

328
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:54,880
and what they try to do is, you
know, gain more and more nuanced

329
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,120
about perhaps the the theory,
you know, to know more about how

330
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,320
something works instead of the
thing about finding about all

331
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,760
the things that don't don't
work.

332
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,480
And this is probably where one
of the places we have shot

333
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,160
ourselves in the foot now
knowing how artificial

334
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,880
intelligence works is that
scientists on the whole, they do

335
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,080
not publish negative results,
OK?

336
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,720
There's no there, there was one
journal called the Journal for

337
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,360
Irreproducible Results.
That was the only one where you

338
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,080
could publish something and then
somebody can.

339
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,480
But I couldn't do that.
OK, The thing is, is that all

340
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,400
the, you know, you only hear
about the successes.

341
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,560
You never hear about the
failures, OK.

342
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,720
And I can tell you as been
scientists that I had many more

343
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,640
failures than I ever had
successes.

344
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,080
And but we didn't publish those,
OK.

345
00:22:53,480 --> 00:23:00,080
Now with AI, if we had had a
method or a way to publish all

346
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,480
the things that we tried that
didn't work, AI would have so

347
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,480
much more information to work
with.

348
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,920
OK, but we didn't do that.
So, so I'm hoping that with AI

349
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,720
we begin to publish like if
you're, you're working in a

350
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,560
particular area that, you know,
part of the, the papers will

351
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,280
will become, you know, we tried
this, but this didn't work.

352
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,920
So then we went to this and then
we went to this and then then we

353
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,600
went to this and then this is
what actually worked.

354
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,920
That would give AIA lot more
information to deal with than

355
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,600
just the things that that work.
I'll just say a quote.

356
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,800
I mean, it's one of Edison's
most famous quote, you know,

357
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,320
when asked, you know, how long
did it take for you to invent

358
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,920
the light bulb?
He says, well, I had to figure

359
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,640
out 99 ways that it didn't work
before I could get to the way it

360
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,880
did work.
And that's sort of, I think, you

361
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,240
know, knowing what doesn't work
is, is valuable information.

362
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,480
But if you don't.
Absolutely, yeah.

363
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,160
And and The thing is, is that
science because, you know I mean

364
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,080
because of the the tenure
system, you know here and in

365
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,040
Europe, if if you know you
basically publish or parish and

366
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,120
many things.
And so you and, and this is all

367
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:21,720
tied to the, the dogma because
if you go against the big guys,

368
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:28,960
you know, and and try, then you,
you, it, it's hard going you,

369
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000
you, you may, you may not get
funded.

370
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,200
You might be seen as a
troublemaker, you know.

371
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,160
Yeah, and you might be seen as
as sort of a, a heretic or an

372
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:44,040
outlaw, so to speak, you know,
and but it it's and, and people

373
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,880
have, you know, have done it,
OK.

374
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,600
I mean, it's like now the
changing of the ideas in

375
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,480
cosmology about The Big Bang and
all that.

376
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,960
I mean, they're getting further
and further away from The Big

377
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,520
Bang.
OK, Yeah.

378
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,040
Notice that and James Webb's
telescope I think disproved

379
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,360
because now they've discovered
galaxies that are so huge and

380
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:10,760
they say, well, if he it would
have taken more than 14.6

381
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,400
billion years for that mass of
energy to travel the distance

382
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,840
that we see and it.
But if you notice, they've been

383
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,640
very quiet about these, these
sort of discoveries, right?

384
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:27,280
Yeah, you have to know where to
be to be looking about it.

385
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:36,280
But there's, you know, it's,
it's becoming a much more, you

386
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,440
know, I used to say what, you
know, when you went to the part

387
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,120
about the I mean, when I was
first young, it was the, there

388
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,480
was 2 ideas.
There was a steady state idea

389
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,440
and there was The Big Bang, OK.
Then the steady state just went

390
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,240
away because, you know, they
wanted the glitzy Big Bang stuff

391
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,600
because of the early information
they were getting.

392
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,040
Now they're beginning to realize
first of all, that, that it that

393
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:04,000
things are a lot older, a lot
bigger, a lot more stuff is out

394
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,000
there than we ever, you know,
dreamed.

395
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:14,800
And so, so it's not as heretical
now to to say that the current

396
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,720
ideas about The Big Bang just
don't fit the data that we've

397
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,360
got, you know, and.
I will say this, I, I will say

398
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,760
that based on again, the Urantia
book and it describes I, I

399
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,280
always find it interesting and I
hope I get a laugh out of you on

400
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,640
this one.
But when I read the first, the

401
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,360
first page or the first section
of the start of three-part 3,

402
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:42,240
which is the history of of
Earth, of Urantia, it doesn't

403
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:48,040
start with the history of Earth.
It goes back 98900 and 87

404
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,440
billion years ago to somebody
known as a what is He is an

405
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,680
assigned Sentinel and he files a
permit.

406
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,360
Right, that's that's right.
He calls a permit.

407
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,080
I know it's it's fantastic.
It's sort of like you, you guys

408
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,360
need to like plant your your
flag a long, long way back, you

409
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:14,760
know, from what you're doing it.
And I agree that that it's sort

410
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,440
of like, you know, you get to be
a finale and then you finally

411
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,600
get a job.
Yeah, right, right.

412
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,760
Yeah, that's sort of the job.
Training takes a long, long.

413
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,000
Time.
Yeah, a long time.

414
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,680
And then finally you'll get a
job.

415
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,360
Yeah.
And that's, but it's, it's the

416
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,240
same sort of thing, you know,
you, we, we just don't, we, we

417
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,720
have not developed the, the and
they tell us that we have, you

418
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,280
know, our human capacity is
limited, yeah, to to, to some of

419
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,360
these things.
But I don't know personally,

420
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,640
I've never been put a been able
to put a limit on God myself.

421
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,040
Yeah, but you know, maybe other
people again, so.

422
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,920
Well, that's what makes this
symposium so exciting because

423
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,600
as, as we progress, I personally
have found and, and Philip

424
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,840
Calabrese's work was great
because he listed the

425
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:08,960
approximations of how likely we
got things right versus how much

426
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,280
we got thing wrong.
And he nailed it to I think

427
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,120
either 50 million or 10 million
to one that the Arantia book

428
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,760
could have accidentally guessed
things that ended up being

429
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,400
correct, you know, so I, I give
him big kudos to that.

430
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:29,000
Do you think that by proving the
scientific credibility of the

431
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:35,280
Urantia book will give it more
validity in academia and is that

432
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,120
possible?
Well, let me just first say this

433
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,680
you you use the P word, which is
proving.

434
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,800
And if you're truly a scientist,
your job isn't to to prove

435
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,280
anything.
OK.

436
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:56,000
And, and Feinstein talks about
this in his book, if you prove

437
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,520
something, then investigation
stops, you've proven it and you

438
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,160
don't give it any more time.
OK?

439
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,160
That's not what science is
about.

440
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,320
Science is constantly pushing
forward and you're not proving

441
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,160
anything.
You're just gaining more

442
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:18,080
evidence to either prove it to
to support your hypothesis or to

443
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:24,040
discount it.
OK, so, but as far as like as we

444
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,360
gain more data that coincides
with things in the Urantia book,

445
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,360
I think that's one of the things
that's going to, you know, going

446
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,800
to help it as far as like, you
know, being accepted.

447
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,600
But, but the Urantia book, it is
not really, you know, it, it's

448
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:49,400
not got the validity yet where
it's considered a, a reference

449
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,720
book.
You know, I mean, that's part of

450
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,760
the reason I went to Oxford and,
and started doing philosophy

451
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,440
after I retired from being in
science.

452
00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:03,640
It's because I, I wanted to, you
know, write a thesis and, and

453
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,520
put the Urantia book in it.
My particular area was ethics.

454
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,120
And of course, in the Urantia
book, there's tons of ethics.

455
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:15,360
And so I, you know, it was more
that, you know, the more people

456
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,400
that we get writing theses in,
in every area, be it science or

457
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:26,600
philosophy or religion or
whatever, you know, we got a lot

458
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:32,720
of academic work to do on that,
that front, because it's not

459
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,680
really accepted as a, you know,
reference or even in the case of

460
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,880
professional philosophers, if
you look at some of them and are

461
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,720
they have to couch their writing
because the question is whether

462
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,600
you're going to reference the
Urantia book and not be able to

463
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,400
find a publisher.
OK, because it has no, you know,

464
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,440
credibility as a yeah, as a
represent.

465
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,560
So the, you know, we have to
start back like I did, you know,

466
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,880
made an attempt at at Oxford
where, you know, every paper I

467
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,040
wrote at Oxford in my classes
and stuff, I used something out

468
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,720
of your answer book.
OK.

469
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,920
And but I wasn't, you know,
trying to publish a book or

470
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,560
something like that.
But, but you have to start and,

471
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:28,440
but as more and more data, be it
in cosmology or in genetics or

472
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,920
in my area about, you know,
biochemistry or in chemistry,

473
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:41,440
then, you know, as we become
more and more aligned with

474
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,840
what's in, in the Urantia book,
that's going to help it.

475
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,200
But that that academically is
going to take, you know, a

476
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,320
while.
I mean, my old mentor, Jim

477
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Mills, he was a graduate
chemist, but when he retired

478
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,360
from his, his, you know,
original career, he went back

479
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,160
and got a PhD in, in philosophy.
He was a senior scholar for the

480
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:10,000
state of Florida and got a PhD
at 72, I think he was 72.

481
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:17,320
And he, and he wrote his thesis
on Whitehead and his use of the

482
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,880
IM, which is of course, what he
could, you know, pull from also

483
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,320
the, the Urantia book, 'cause
that was a philosophical that,

484
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,840
you know, as they say, a
philosophical concept that we

485
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,800
have developed for ourselves.
And that's what Jim wrote his,

486
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,120
his, his thesis on.
But see, we need more of that

487
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,760
sort of thing.
And the more of those that

488
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:46,640
happen, then the more and more
so whether it's in science or

489
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:52,360
philosophy or the archaeology or
history, you know, as it becomes

490
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,320
more aligned, it will, you know,
help with the validity of the

491
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,880
book.
But of course, I think you are

492
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,560
very much like me, that that's
very secondary to us who are

493
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,080
real students of the book, you
know, and.

494
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,040
I've heard that say before too.
It if you're looking for science

495
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,200
to prove that the Urantia book
is a credible document, you're

496
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,960
missing the point because it's
supposed.

497
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,600
To be.
More of a spiritual introduction

498
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,920
to perhaps the greater universe.
And I tend to look at Jesus's

499
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,160
revelation was more about the
personal relationship between

500
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,560
man and God.
Whereas the Urantia book is more

501
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,520
of the OK, let's fill in the the
spaces where you don't have that

502
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,800
much knowledge about what
happens in the universe.

503
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,200
And we're here to tell you,
because the only other way

504
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,960
you're going to find out is
through terrestrial escape, IE

505
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,040
death and resurrection.
Right, right.

506
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,120
So we're.
We can tell you I totally agree

507
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:46,920
with that.
Yeah.

508
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,200
What?
Are the most amazing things that

509
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,360
you think the Urantia book did,
did, for lack of a better word,

510
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,480
were prophetic and and as a
cellular biologist, anything in

511
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,200
the book that was written in
1934 that we should be paying

512
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,199
attention to that would actually
aid us in in areas of science

513
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,320
and health?
Well, there there's, yeah.

514
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,560
I mean, the, the, the, I think
one of the most interesting is,

515
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:24,600
is for looking at that genetics
is that, you know, they, they

516
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,360
tell us that we did not get the
Adamic infusion.

517
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,360
And basically now you're on your
own.

518
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,480
You know, you gotta, you get
the, whatever improvements

519
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,760
you're gonna have to do
yourself.

520
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:40,239
And so, you know, now we've, you
know, we've got the ability, you

521
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,000
know, to do that.
We can actually, you know,

522
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,840
change a gene and that's going
to be a long time in development

523
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:56,719
because we are, we already have
some, you know, sort of social

524
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:04,360
deep grained psychological
things about changing humans

525
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,720
because of, you know, the way we
use the word eugenics.

526
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,440
And then, you know, World War 2,
particularly with, you know, the

527
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,640
thing about the area and all
that sort of stuff.

528
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,320
And so people that makes this a
very negative context on that.

529
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,080
But actually, you know, what we
have now and the ability to

530
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,040
change some of the things I, I
see it as just as we're

531
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,080
beginning to, you know, go back
in, in archaeology and realize

532
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,920
that older civilizations
actually live in different

533
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:39,320
places, is that we're going to
start with changing the genome

534
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:47,400
on for disease, you know, to
hopefully prevent disease in, in

535
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,240
children that have, you know,
that are born with genetic

536
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,480
diseases or even before they're
conceived.

537
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,880
You know, I mean, they, they do
now they'll, they'll do, they

538
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,360
will pick embryos that they know
are not expressing a gene for

539
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,880
something like Tay Sachs or, you
know, some bad, really terrible

540
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,400
genetic disease.
And then it is going to, you

541
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,920
know, progress.
It is going to progress on to

542
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:19,080
where we, we know that we can,
you know, do, you know, do other

543
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,480
other things with it.
But we we as a society, as

544
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,280
society, as a world society,
we're we're going to have to

545
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,280
make some, you know, really hard
decisions, just like it says in

546
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,200
the you know, your into book
and, and about what you have to

547
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:43,760
to do to help society or the the
all of of humankind, you know,

548
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,320
the purge of, of disease that
you know, and the the genes that

549
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,440
really are detrimental.
And so we'll, we'll do that and

550
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,920
then we'll move on, you know, to
to other things.

551
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,200
I don't, I have a horror of
them, you know, using it when

552
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,720
they were first doing, you know,
changes in genetics, you were

553
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:10,240
doing it mainly for somatic
cells.

554
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,400
But then when they got to the
point to where they can do it

555
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:20,280
with, you know, your sex cells,
then then you're, you're, you

556
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,520
know, some people are afraid of
we're playing God, you know,

557
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,160
but, but but basically in the in
the your answering book, they

558
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,920
said, well, you know, you didn't
get the incomplete Adamic

559
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,800
infusion.
You know, that would have

560
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,040
eliminated a lot of this stuff
like, you know, your propensity

561
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:43,720
for cancer or, or, or, you know,
whatever you may have, but you

562
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,040
know, so now you've got to
figure this, you've got to

563
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,200
figure it out.
You're, you're smart, go out and

564
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:54,080
figure it out, you know, and so
we are, we're making progress on

565
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,960
that line, but those also bring
in, you know, we've got to grow

566
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:04,680
in in ethics and our philosophy
of, of life and what we want a

567
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,920
society to be, you know, and,
and that we don't want to be so.

568
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,840
Yeah, because some of the things
that we're doing now with, and I

569
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,880
know that they in in less savory
countries, let's say you know,

570
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,200
with donor replacement, they're
using basically prisoners and

571
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:25,000
and that is so egregious.
Yeah, right.

572
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,880
Beyond any ethical boundary, and
that cannot be the approach that

573
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,480
we take.
It has to be a spiritually

574
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,640
fragrant approach to improving
the overall health of everybody.

575
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,920
As a for example, I know in one
section of the Urantia book it

576
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,720
makes a passing comment about
the ability of using our own

577
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:50,000
body to and I believe it's
probably an advanced idea of

578
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,280
immunology.
Immunotherapy, right, right,

579
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:54,080
right.
Uh huh.

580
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:59,600
Where we begin to use, you know,
our own when we understand more

581
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,960
about the human body.
I mean, we're doing that now in

582
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,880
in some cancers, you know where
we're, we're looking at, at

583
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,120
using our manipulating the
immune system to can't the

584
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,160
individual to attack the cancer,
OK.

585
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,240
And so, you know,
immunotherapies I've I've

586
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,720
actually been on an
immunotherapy for skin cancer,

587
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,040
which has worked really well,
OK.

588
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:31,280
And so you know, but we're using
my my immune system to go after

589
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,880
the the cancer, OK.
And so, you know, the, it's

590
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,280
learning on all of these
different levels.

591
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,880
And they give us, it's like the,
the, the, the thing you just

592
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,640
just alluded to, they give us
all these hints, but then when

593
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:49,640
we make a scientific discovery
about something, we go, oh,

594
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,680
that's what they meant.
OK, that's what then.

595
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,280
And I love to do that.
You know, I like read something

596
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,400
and I'll go, oh, wait a minute
and I'll go back in the Urantia,

597
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,160
but you know, and I'll figure
out where the the and I go, Oh,

598
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,200
that's what you meant.
OK, now, now I get it.

599
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,000
Thank you.
You know and.

600
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,600
Which begs the question,
Marjorie, we're talking with

601
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,160
Marjorie Ray, who is
spearheading the symposium

602
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,680
coming up in November.
But we're looking for scientists

603
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,600
who want to make presentations.
And the deadline to file is

604
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,320
April 15th.
And again, joanne@urantia.org is

605
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:24,920
a way that you can get more
information.

606
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,040
What could, do you think that
scientists or or researchers or

607
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,120
any feel, do you think that they
could learn a lot from the

608
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,080
Urantia book?
Do you think it's worth even if

609
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,000
it's done in secret?
And do you think it's happening?

610
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,160
Do you think that there are
scientists who are aware and are

611
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,280
using the urantia?
I think so, you know, a lot of

612
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,760
people think that, that most
scientists are, you know.

613
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,600
Atheists.
Agnostic, agnostic at best and

614
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,520
atheists at worst, you know, and
I need to tell you, but that's

615
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,200
not necessarily true.
Now, granted, the, the folks

616
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,440
that are in the head of the
national, you know, they're in

617
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,160
the National Academy, a larger
percentage of those, if you go

618
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:16,360
back and look at how the Pew
Trust has polled them over the

619
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,640
years about their religious
belief.

620
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,560
It's really been interesting
because the older ones are the

621
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,400
ones that tend to be what we
refer to as non believers, where

622
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,480
the younger ones don't.
They're much more open minded

623
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,680
about, about it.
But there have been some really

624
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:40,080
significant scientists who have,
you know, proclaimed their,

625
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,560
their, you know, their belief.
And I mean, these are big time

626
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,120
people, people that have won the
Nobel Prize, you know, for

627
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,160
physics.
And one of them lived out here

628
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,640
on the West Coast, a guy named
Charles Towns.

629
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,680
And he won.
He was a major physicist, I

630
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,880
think he was at Caltech.
But he was a serious

631
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:04,120
religionist.
I mean, he was a flower of

632
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,280
Jesus.
I, I think, you know, he, he

633
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,280
knew a little bit about the
Urantia book.

634
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,160
You can look him up.
He's pretty amazing.

635
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,440
He also won a Templeton Prize,
which the Templeton Prize is

636
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,520
sort of like the Nobel Prize for
science and religion.

637
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,160
OK.
And there's another guy named

638
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,520
John Pokinghorn.
We lost John a couple of years

639
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:27,920
ago.
I, I met him when I was at

640
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:33,000
Cambridge for a meeting and John
was a bang up physicist.

641
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,200
You can read some of his books
about high energy and particle

642
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,200
physics and reality and those
things.

643
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,440
But when he finished being a
scientist, he went back and got

644
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:49,400
his degree in theology and
became, and the Church of

645
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,760
England wanted him to be, you
know, high up in their church.

646
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,560
And he goes, Oh no, I have to be
AI, have to be a vicar.

647
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,960
I have to go and be in A and so
he went in for five years.

648
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,520
He was a vicar, you know, in a,
in a, in a church out in the

649
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:10,240
countryside in England and was
very loved and revered by, you

650
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:15,240
know, his, his flock.
And he actually helped start the

651
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,800
thing that I was involved with
at Cambridge called the Faraday

652
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,600
Institute, which is an institute
of science and religion and in

653
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,360
science and theology.
And you can go and look up some

654
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:27,880
of the stuff that that they have
done.

655
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,880
I've been there.
I've been to some programs

656
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:36,160
there, you know, so, so these
are people that are, you know,

657
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,480
they are, I mean, serious
scientists, you know, CERN guys,

658
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,080
you know, yeah, the high energy
particle physics guys.

659
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,600
And they absolutely believe in
God, you know, And so you

660
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:50,720
mentioned you.
That's.

661
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,840
You mentioned you worked with
Elon Musk, the space, I'm

662
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,720
assuming the SpaceX program.
Well, yeah, they only got us a

663
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:02,520
ride.
NASA got us a ride on his first

664
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,360
rocket that that got us we
needed the shuttle program had

665
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,160
been, you know, Needless to say,
it was discontinued after

666
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,680
Columbia went down, which
Columbia had actually been the

667
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,800
ship that my, my boss, who was
an astronaut and also a

668
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,560
scientist.
He had, he had gone up in

669
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,680
Columbia and he, you know, but
we had trained a lot of people

670
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,520
on that thing.
We knew everybody that was

671
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,760
killed on that.
And our our site was the only

672
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,840
other place that they, they had
a designated site for when they

673
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,880
did the memorial service from
Johnson.

674
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:47,040
Was it our building in Alabama?
But it it is, you know, we, we

675
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:52,080
just got what they NASA had come
to us and asked us to solve a

676
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,080
problem from them.
They were thinking about the

677
00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:01,680
base on the moon and they wanted
to know whether it would be both

678
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:08,560
economically and scientifically
a good idea to think about

679
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,040
putting a crystallography thing
on the on the moon.

680
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,960
In other words, write that in to
the, the moon plan for the base

681
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,200
on the moon so that you could do
crystallography up there in

682
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,680
microgravity, which is what we
were really about.

683
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,240
And the, and so we, we were
involved with some like 300

684
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:31,360
scientists over the world over
that sent us their proteins.

685
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,920
And anyway, we were doing this
experiment to answer that

686
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,480
question for, and the in the
meantime, this shuttle program

687
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,680
had of course stopped after
Columbia went down.

688
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:49,400
And so the, the next best way at
that time was Musk was beginning

689
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,840
to, to, to start his rockets up
there.

690
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,840
And so NASA bought us a ride and
it was supposed to have gone off

691
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,200
in November of September and
2013.

692
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,160
And understand, I was trying to
retire.

693
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:09,400
And so I kept putting off my
retirement because I was, you

694
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:15,120
know, I had a big part of that
project and it was really funny.

695
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:16,800
It kept getting put off, put
off.

696
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,560
And so finally I, I retired and
then they hired me back in as a

697
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,680
consultant and I went down to
the Cape like 6 times trying to

698
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,160
get that, that rocket off the
ground.

699
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,920
It was just like, and something
would happen every time, every

700
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,680
you know.
And so finally it it, it finally

701
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,080
went off.
And then six days later I moved

702
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,560
to Ireland and well, the reason
I I bring.

703
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,720
Up Elon is I hear him and I I'm
AI guess I'm a fan because he's

704
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:50,880
so innovative in his thinking.
Putting the politics aside for a

705
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,600
minute, but you know, I hear him
talk about things like what does

706
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,960
he think made the universe?
And, and I know that there's a

707
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,200
group of people, very smart
people like we've discussed.

708
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,920
And my, my instincts are, man,
I, I really want to get this guy

709
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,640
the, the Urantia book because I
think that somebody like an Elon

710
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,920
Musk or even maybe even a Bill
Gates, they're missing a big

711
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,080
part of the picture here, which
is I think what's missing in, in

712
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,200
science in general.
It's a very mono monochromatic

713
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,240
view of, of life as opposed to
the stereoscopic view that we

714
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,720
get when we think about the
spiritual aspect of the

715
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:29,760
universe, the universal mind
concept.

716
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,200
And that's my desire is what I
would like to see smart because

717
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:35,680
you know, most Siegel said it
best.

718
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,840
The Urantia book is a smart
religion.

719
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,680
It takes a little bit of work.
It, it's, it's not reductionist

720
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,240
in any, in any fashion.
In fact, it's very complex,

721
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,720
which turns a lot of people off,
but it would have appeal to

722
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,560
people who are not just simply
satisfied with simple faith, you

723
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,960
know?
Yeah, it it, I would, I would

724
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,200
certainly love to to think so.
I mean, I know that, you know,

725
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:08,080
some of these people are, you
know, are committed

726
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,120
religionists.
And then, of course, there's a

727
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,920
group of them that are not you.
You mentioned Bill Gates.

728
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,720
He's actually a very rather
devout Roman Catholic.

729
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:20,680
OK.
And there's there's, you know,

730
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,680
other other ones.
I, I don't know the prolivity of

731
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:30,120
Elon Musk, but you know, there,
there are some very smart

732
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,880
people, one of which I happen to
actually know, which is Francis

733
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:39,960
Collins, who just.
Yeah, Francis, you know, retired

734
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:46,880
from NIH and I did a lot of work
in the cystic fibrosis area for

735
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,840
like protein lipid interactions.
Anyway, Francis came out of the

736
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:57,640
cystic fibrosis area originally
and he's a brilliant, he's one

737
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,800
of the most brilliant men I've
ever, ever been around I've ever

738
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,360
known.
And you know, he is an

739
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,280
absolutely confirmed
religionist.

740
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,560
If you haven't read his book,
The Language of God, I can

741
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:16,440
highly recommend it.
He he, but he's also a

742
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,080
conservative.
He's won a Templeton Prize too.

743
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:27,440
He but he's a what I think we
would consider a conservative

744
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:34,000
religionist in that, you know,
he's or almost evangelical to a

745
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,160
degree and which is great.
I mean, and that works for

746
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:43,000
Francis and you know, there were
there were times like when he

747
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,640
was under so much threat during
the pending.

748
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:50,200
I thought about xeroxing just
wanted one paper or just a page

749
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:55,000
or something and, and mailing it
to a you know, but there there

750
00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:00,600
are people like that and and you
just don't know, you know, but

751
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:06,400
but like many things, I think a
personal approach to these folks

752
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:12,640
is it will get you a lot more
further down the road than just,

753
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,520
you know, dropping A2.
Yeah, a 2000 page book.

754
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,360
Here, read this and get back.
Gonna Yeah, yeah.

755
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:21,840
That I don't think that's gonna,
you know, happen.

756
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,560
But yeah, I mean, I think
anybody that is willing to put

757
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,680
the time in, I don't care who
you are, OK, whether you're, you

758
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:33,200
know, just my next door neighbor
or your, you know, person down

759
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,080
the street or Elon Musk or Bill
Gates or whoever.

760
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:42,040
I I think that anybody can
benefit from from reading it,

761
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,960
you know, at many levels, so
all.

762
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,160
Right, well, I have one more
question and I.

763
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,040
And I.
And I, I know you'll take your

764
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,960
time and give me the the a very
thoughtful response.

765
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,760
But as a scientist, what was it
about the Urantia book that

766
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,720
appealed to you and convinced
you that it was something

767
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:05,280
special?
Well, it wasn't me as a

768
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,640
scientist that it, it, it, it
got to me.

769
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:16,560
I, I'll tell you the 1st paper I
read, which was, I wanted to

770
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,840
understand why evil existed in
the world.

771
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:25,600
And I was, And so the first
thing I read was the Lucifer

772
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,960
rebellion.
And, and of course, that's,

773
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:36,240
that's a pretty, if you're
interested in thinking about the

774
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:41,520
larger picture of good and evil
and iniquity and sin, then

775
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,400
that's pretty, It lays it out
pretty well, you know, And so I

776
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,080
was pretty hooked from the very
beginning of that.

777
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:54,320
But the thing that got me was
just that from page one to the

778
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:59,320
very last page, it's so
amazingly consistent.

779
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:07,160
And it's, it's that you that I
had the feeling that they were

780
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:12,840
really trying to help me
understand the world that I live

781
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,400
in, but also the universe that I
live in.

782
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,160
But that the things for me right
now are really that are real

783
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,840
important, are personal, you
know, very, very personal.

784
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,600
It's how I treat other people,
how I appreciate other people,

785
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,040
how I respect other people.
All those things came through.

786
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,600
I mean, I, I did not start in
the, in the Jesus papers, but

787
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:41,080
boy, when I got to the Jesus
papers, I, I just, I couldn't

788
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,920
stop.
I was just, you know, totally

789
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,600
absorbed.
And so, you know, it wasn't so

790
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,800
much that it told me stuff about
science that I thought I wanted

791
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,640
to hear or, or wanted to, to
know.

792
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:02,840
It was that I was a very valued,
loved child of God.

793
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,480
And that's, that's the thing
that, that appealed, you know,

794
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,680
to me.
So it didn't really have a whole

795
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,680
lot to do with science.
Very, very interesting.

796
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,960
Well, Marjorie, I have to say
this has been an enjoyable hour.

797
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,000
And I don't really ever go an
hour, but I've been.

798
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,080
Oh, OK.
Well.

799
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:24,320
No, I it's a good thing.
Yeah.

800
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:25,640
I'm very grateful.
Yeah.

801
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,920
Yeah, Well, I need to, I need
to, I do need to just say one

802
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:34,000
thing that the scientific
symposium is being is sponsored

803
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,320
by the Your Rancho Foundation's
Education Committee.

804
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,240
Guard used to head up that
committee and boy, he really

805
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:43,400
helped us out.
And and now, you know, things

806
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,400
are are changing, but we've
always been tremendously

807
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,880
supported by the education
committee for, you know, this,

808
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,600
the scientific symposium.
So for that, I have to give them

809
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,560
kudos and thank you very much As
for doing that for us.

810
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,880
So yeah, for all of us, you
know, we're the, we're the kind

811
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:02,040
of the geekies of the geeks in
the.

812
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,080
That's OK.
Yeah, we're a loyal, we're a

813
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,120
pretty loyal group.
So we'll, we'll, we'll be here

814
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,800
as long as we, you know, can and
we'll pass it on to the next

815
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:13,960
generation of.
All right, we'll mark it on your

816
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:15,600
calendar.
The 6th through the 8th of

817
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,040
November is when the symposium,
We'll be there.

818
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,680
I'm sure that if you reach out
to joanne@urantia.org, she can

819
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,800
give you the information.
If you can't participate, at

820
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,520
least be a part of the viewing
audience.

821
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,200
And I know people will be
amazed.

822
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,680
And once again, thanks to our
guest this hour talking about

823
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,000
the upcoming scientific
symposium and science in general

824
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,120
in relation to the Urantia book.
Follow the podcast on Spotify

825
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,320
and any major podcast player.
Please share this with fellow

826
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:48,200
truth seekers and also all of
the episodes are archived on our

827
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:53,120
homepage at urantiaradio.org.
Until next time, be a good cheer

828
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,120
and thank you again for stopping
by.