My Time with Brad Garner - Second Generation Reader

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Welcome to another edition of
the Urantia Radio Podcast.

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It's very good to have you here,
and I appreciate you taking time

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out to enjoy the subject matter
as we unpack the Urantia book

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and all of his facets.
And today, we're very happy to

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have with us Brad Garner, who is
one of the lead instructors or

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hosts of Symmetry of Soul, which
is an online study group of

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sorts, which is also led by
Chris Halverson.

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Dr. Halverson in Boulder, many
people who listen to this

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podcast or who are familiar with
Boulder, Co and the Urantia

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community that we have there.
No Chris.

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And we will be having a great
conversation today with Brad

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Garner.
We'll talk about his experience

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in growing up in a Urantia Book
household and what he learned

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along the way as far as his
dabblings with Christianity as

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well as the Urantia book.
And we'll talk about other

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things too, what's going on
socially and where Brad

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envisions the Urantia book is
headed.

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All this and very much more on
our candid conversation with

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Brad Garner, this time up on the
Urantia Radio podcast.

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Brad Garner is part of the group
behind Symmetry of Soul, which

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is, I'll let him describe it.
But what makes also Brad a very

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interesting person.
He's one of the few people that

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I actually know who.
Grew up around the Urantia book.

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So he is a second generation
Urantia book student, meaning

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that one or more of his parents
actually raised him in the

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environment of the Urantia book.
So I'm curious about that

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starting that off.
I just want to welcome you to

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the show and say thank you and
glad you're here.

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You're also part of your.
You work with the foundation as

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well, part of the IT so.
That's right, Jim.

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Yeah.
Yeah, that's exciting.

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But to start off, what was it
like for you growing up in

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retrospect with parents who read
the Oranga book?

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Share that experience with us.
Yeah, thanks, Jim.

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I really appreciate the
opportunity to be here on on

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your on your program.
It, it was an interesting

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upbringing for sure.
On the very easy plus side,

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there was never a time in my
life I can think back to where I

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thought we might be alone in the
universe.

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I guess I just took it as a
given that there are other

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inhabited worlds.
Carl Sagan has spent his whole

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life wondering might there be
life on other worlds.

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And I always wondered what's he
so pent wrought up about?

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Of course there is.
So the night sky was just filled

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with life.
It was a little intimidating.

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This Urantia book is not like
the Bible.

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The Bible is a carrying forward
of oral tradition in many ways.

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So the stories in it can be
very, some of them can be very

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heavy, but they're very
accessible.

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The story of Jonah and the
whale, you can tell that to a

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six year old.
The story of the 10 councils of

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Dalamatia, it's a little more
abstract for a six year old.

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I do remember.
I'll just share with this I when

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I was eight, I wanted to try to
find a way to connect with what

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my parents were doing.
So I tried to make an audio book

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version of the Urantia book on
cassette tape.

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I got like 4 pages in and I was
spelling every other word,

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apologizing profusely.
So I gave up quickly, but I was

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trying to somehow connect.
But yeah, yeah, I was eight.

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My, I have AI had two sisters
and one of them also took to the

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book around age 8.
And they've been a very

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primitive way.
She started attending the study

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group that was held every week
in our house.

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That was never my cup of tea,
but she got down there and

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started underlining passages
long before she could possibly

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understand them.
So it was the one of the main

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thing I'd say beyond all these
funny little anecdotes.

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There was a lot of tension
because we also nominatively

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tried to be Christians.
We went to a Methodist Church,

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we tried a Baptist Church.
We went to some what you might

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call evangelical churches,
almost like tent revivals.

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And every time we would leave,
there was this discussion that

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the parents would have with the
children about the atonement

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doctrine, the number one
doctrinal quibble.

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You might say that we all
wrestle with his readers of the

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Urantia Book.
So that set up some tension in

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our childhood mind.
What are we supposed to believe?

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The pastor says this, our
parents say that.

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Yeah, those are hard questions
when you're young.

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And how did you overcome that?
Because a lot of people don't.

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I've heard people, or even
recently when we were doing the

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Spotlight series, someone, I, it
may even been you, that there

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are people who refuse to even
consider the Urantia book simply

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because of the way the atonement
doctrine is spelled out in the

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Urantia book, which maybe we
should try to explain for people

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who don't know what that means.
But how did you overcome that?

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It's been a lifelong journey I
could take with the statement

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you just said.
There are people who won't

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consider the Urantia book
because of its position on

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atonement.
There are people who won't

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consider Christianity because of
its position on the atonement.

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There are people standing on
both sides of what seems to be a

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Grand Canyon sized gulf.
And this doctrine, this idea

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that God requires some kind of
super material sacrifice to make

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us humans in our lowliest state
pleasing to him, once again

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reachable by him.
It's a very old idea.

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You can read papers in the
Urantia book around the upper

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80's, the lower 90s that talk
about the the early origins of

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primitive religion.
And you can see that we early

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on, even before there was
rebellion or default or

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secularism or anything, we felt
we were somehow in debt to the

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gods or the ethereal forces, the
ghosts.

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So it's naturally born in us to
feel we have some sort of debt.

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It's almost, it seems that this
concept of sin, sacrifice, and

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atonement is something that is
supposed to develop in US and

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then eventually we can find ways
to evolve past while still

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respecting that it was part of
our either individual

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development or our collective
societal development.

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To answer your question, it's
been a lifelong developmental

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process.
If you had met me at age 20, I

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was running around my university
campus fervently trying to

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disabuse very well-intentioned
Christians of their atonement

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doctrine notions, which without
even knowing it, like I was

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probably accidentally trying to
take them away from God.

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To them, the atonement doctrine
is how they can communicate,

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commune with God.
Now, you, if you caught me

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today, you'd see that my wife
and I attend, but cannot be

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considered members of an
evangelical church.

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The preaching that that takes
place there, the quality of the

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sermons, the practicality and
the living connection that

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people have.
We don't adhere to the atonement

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doctrine, but we can see it for
what it is now, a part of the

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evolutionary process.
In a, in a sense, because of the

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defaults of Adam and Eve and the
fall of the garden and all that,

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we have to respect the idea that
in, in a, in a way, we were

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orphaned.
It had Adam and Eve succeeded,

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they would still be with us
today.

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There would be a shining
civilizations.

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I envision probably some sort of
a spiritual center of learning

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somewhere in the Middle East,
maybe even right there in

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Baghdad, what is now Baghdad or
so.

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But that didn't happen.
As kids that are rejected when

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they're young, the first thing
they assume and it's their fault

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that they did something wrong.
So I think that's wired into us.

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We feel like we have to earn
God's favor negotiating with

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God.
Good luck, bad luck.

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But it's not a very high notion
of justice, as the revelators

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say.
At one point, most kids would

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see through the illogic of that
What judge would allow one

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person to take the penalty for
someone else's crime?

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Right.
Yeah.

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'Cause I've studied the tried to
get a holistic grasp of the

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Urantia book, I see that the
revelators are the authors of

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all these papers are trying to
strike a balance.

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They come out of the gate
swinging.

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It's a very memorable paper.
Section paragraph.

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It's paper 4, Section 5,
paragraph 6456.

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That is the paragraph that says
what a travesty upon the

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infinite character of God.
And it's just this takedown,

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brutal of the atonement
doctrine.

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And if you read that and you
start, you turn your brain off

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then and don't read all the
other things in the rancher book

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and say, yeah, stick it to those
atonement freaks.

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And you just stick with that,
that the heat on that one

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paragraph.
You won't see there's a whole

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section over in the meanings,
that of the death on the cross,

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where they talk about Jesus
didn't just die for for your

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sins.
He lived and died for our entire

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world and our entire universe.
They try to recontextualize it.

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He lived and died.
Death was a part of life.

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This was the way that he died.
So they're trying to give us a

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way to to step it up without
throwing out entirely, 'cause

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there are people who only get
through every day right now

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because they think they have
God's favor through the shedding

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of His beloved Son's blood.
To me, the sense of, and I don't

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know where you stand on the
issue, but climate, the climate

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crisis, people in the West feel
that they have it so good that

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they have to pay a sacrifice,
but.

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If there's one thing that your
rancher book helps us see is the

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lessons of history.
The more things change, the more

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they stay the same.
You can look around today if you

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have eyes to see it and you can
see that there is a new form of

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shaman or high priest that's
being invented, but in a secular

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way.
You might call it a techno

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shaman.
We tend to worship those high

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technology figures that run the
gigantic corporate technology

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companies.
I'm a computer guy, but I'm also

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a, a, a geologist by training in
a in a past life of mine

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somewhat.
And I know that not just from

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the the secular story of
geologic history on our Earth,

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which says the climate moves
around all the time, but from

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the story in the Urantia book
that first two human beings and

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on Infanta, what was one of the
first forces they were subject

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to other than the pressures of
their immediate family and their

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circumstance.
It was climate.

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They started going north and it
was cold.

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So they that forced them to
adapt to find, to discover fire

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and to have skins to put on
them.

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Like the lesson of climate
pushing us and poking us and

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prodding us around the planet is
not that we should try to

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sacrifice to some climate God to
keep things in stasis, but that

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we should adapt because the
meaning of life is its

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adaptability, To quote the The
Rancher book.

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But back to the parents.
How did they come to be?

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Were they part of the original
fellowship or the 70 that would

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read the book?
Tell me a little bit of history

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about your parents.
So here, here's what my how my

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parents did not come to the book
for, for those who know any of

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the history of this, they, they
were not in and around the

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Chicago area part of the forum
or the folks at at the

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headquarters building that were
first reading it.

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So they weren't part of that
sort of Midwestern phenomenon.

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They also weren't part of that
early 1970s kind of outgrowth of

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the Jesus movement in America
that brought a lot of long

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haired people with high ideals
to the Arantia book knocking on

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the door of the Chicago
headquarters saying, hey man,

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far out.
They weren't that either.

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My mom came to the book in 1979
because she was taking a systems

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analysis course at her
university.

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And when the course was over,
she went to the office hours of

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the professor and she said this
course was great.

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But all this philosophy you just
keep peppering in every now and

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then.
Where are you getting this stuff

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from?
I want to know.

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And he said, come to my study
group.

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So she found it there and she
brought it home and my dad took

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to it like a fish to water.
I don't know the exact history

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of that.
My dad passed away a few years

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ago and he never really
narratized it, but he seemed

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very down with it.
I think he was a very he was a

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mechanical engineer by trade, so
I think he appreciated the

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logical way the universe
operates rather than some of the

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leftover magical notions that is
part of some of the baggage, the

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part and parcel of Christianity.
So that that was how they came

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to it.
My mom through incidentally

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00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:47,400
through a systems analysis
course.

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But she asked the question.
See, it was the in the asking.

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It's always about the in the
asking.

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It's always starts with the ask.
The appetite, that's right,

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00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,040
that's.
Right, that's right.

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00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,600
OK, so growing up, there was a
period of your life where you

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shrugged it all off.
Call it rebellion, whatever you

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00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,240
want.
Tell us about that experience.

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00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,800
What was going on, where you
said I'm walking away from this?

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00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,640
Honestly, the the the simplest
way, quite unintentionally, just

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00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,160
one step at a time.
As these things so often are, I

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started feeling the need to be
popular.

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00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,400
I went back to Graduate School
in my mid 20s.

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I'd gotten a computer science
degree and I went back to

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00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,840
Graduate School for a a geology
degree.

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00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,480
I was really interested in how
the world functions and actually

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I'd, I'd use the Urantia book to
really whet my appetite on that.

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00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,480
But I got into grad school and
it was a very secular, almost

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hostilely atheistic environment.
You certainly no one talked

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00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,120
about God and you couldn't.
And you know, my days were

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00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,400
filled with midterms and
thesises and sample collection

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00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,440
for my master's degree.
I discovered I didn't have much

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00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,680
time for God and so I just
drifted naturally away, but then

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00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,760
ended up getting into a
relationship where we played off

250
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,560
of each other's like mockery of
the worst superstitions of

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00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:03,640
Christianity.
You know, I'm not proud of it,

252
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,480
but I just I drifted away
because the secular pull.

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00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,440
I mean, they warned us
throughout paper 195 about this.

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00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,400
I know, you know, that's a
favorite of yours, Jim.

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00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,760
It's it is magnetic these days.
There are things out there that

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00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,360
don't just want to separate
church from state.

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00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,920
Maybe that's all well and good
and very practical, but they

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00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,720
want to separate man from God,
which is will destroy

259
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,000
civilization and destroy souls.
Just the idea that people need

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00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,840
to re engage with this idea that
what lies within them is truly

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00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,560
eternal.
And how do you get them to get

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00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:38,120
to that point?
Because I see a lot of

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00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,320
hopelessness and I see a lot of
doubt driving mental illness.

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00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,320
I think how Lindsay of all
people who wrote the late great

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00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,840
Planet Earth, and I remember
reading this in the 70s, it says

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00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,920
you can go a week without
eating.

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00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,280
You can go three days without
water, but you can only go a few

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00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,840
minutes without hope.
And what gives you hope is the

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00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,040
belief that that we're here for
a reason.

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00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,400
I I.
Think so for some reason you,

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00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,800
you jogged my memory.
Not to go on a tangent, but my,

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00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,840
my favorite movie, like many
people of my generation of all

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00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,520
time is the Shawshank
Redemption.

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00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,320
And it's you could see it as a
religious or spiritual movie

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00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,400
and, and many people do it as
almost a Christian allegory, but

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00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,880
they they claim that was
unintentional.

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00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,880
But the central theme of it is
hope, is that even in the worst

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00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,480
hell on earth of this horrible
prison, there are always shining

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00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,600
moments of hope.
And that's what brings meaning

280
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,560
and light.
And in that movie, at least

281
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,880
ultimately, the redemption of
the the actual main character.

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00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,440
Earlier you mentioned this
orphanhood that we suffer from.

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00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,320
And I think that's so important
to remember, not to harp on it

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00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,680
in a sentimental way.
You can read lots of Charles

285
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,960
Dickens and feel very
sentimental appropriately about

286
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,720
orphans.
You should That's but it really

287
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,360
when you read the first 10
papers of the Urantia book very

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00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,920
slowly and you pay attention.
We've been doing this daily read

289
00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,800
through project with some people
where we read a section a day.

290
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,760
It's going to take us almost six
years.

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00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,120
You notice how many times the
authors of the papers go out of

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00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,880
their way to say you are not an
orphan, you are not a lonely,

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00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,480
you're not the only inhabited
world.

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00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,840
Somewhere in the middle of the
book there's a whole sentence

295
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,880
that's italicized that says man
is not an evolutionary accident.

296
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,040
If you think about it, they're
trying to tell these poor hurt

297
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,000
little children tadpoles.
If you want to follow their

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00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,320
analogy, you're not alone.
We know you feel alone, but

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00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,200
you're not.
We know that Adam and Eve felt

300
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,600
alone their first night in the
garden cause of the the

301
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,800
quarantine of the planet.
But you're not alone.

302
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,960
That was the beginning of their
era when they they isolated

303
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,120
themselves.
You should be connected to the

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00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,520
cosmos.
You're not alone.

305
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,960
Just briefly, I this is one of
the things that began to give me

306
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:45,600
a beef with Christianity growing
up.

307
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,360
Some of the tension I alluded
to, I was in Dallas, TX growing

308
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,880
up, which is the heart of the
televangelist movement of the

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00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,520
1980s.
You want to talk about an easy

310
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,360
target for looking for
charlatans who are trying to

311
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,440
peddle credulous people out of
their money to so they can fly

312
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,680
on their private jet planes?
They were a dime a dozen around

313
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,520
Dallas, Fort Worth.
And I, I saw that all the time.

314
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:07,960
Like, this can't be true
religion.

315
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,320
Like, I can see right through
this.

316
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,920
He's trying to tell you that he
will, if you give him $1000, God

317
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,360
will magically send you $10,000
or he'll heal your cancer.

318
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,600
And I don't think that's the way
the cosmos works.

319
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,360
But that's not true hope.
That's a false hope being

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00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,760
peddled.
And it can lead people to

321
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,440
ultimately to bitterness and
nihilism because it's not true.

322
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,440
So the atonement doctrine
declares that, and Franklin

323
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,040
Graham says this on his
commercials, the idea that you

324
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,800
have to confess your sins.
What is the Urantia book?

325
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,040
How does it deal with that?
Because that's central core to

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00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,480
Christianity.
Most Christians would say that

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00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,040
until you go through that
process of accepting your

328
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,160
frailty.
And what's your interpretation

329
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:54,160
of that?
I think.

330
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,160
It, it's, it's like most things
in the Urantia book, it's

331
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,280
multifaceted.
On the one hand, certainly the

332
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,160
idea of literally sitting in a
small box and confessing your

333
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,520
sins to someone who has a
certain ecclesiastical

334
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,480
authority, the Catholic
tradition that that's not

335
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,200
supported by the revelators,
They look at that and give it a

336
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,079
they look once and they pass by,
to quote Dante as Virgil's going

337
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,119
through all these strange
things, look once and pass by.

338
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:18,960
That's just part of evolutionary
religion.

339
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,040
Is that come from the same place
as a feeling of always having to

340
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,440
negotiate with God?
I think it's.

341
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,200
I really can't quote it verbatim
from memory.

342
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,080
There's a part where they talk
about people who keep up their

343
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,920
daily activities by false
illusions of success.

344
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,240
I do think I got that phrase
right.

345
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,240
You could search for false
illusions of success.

346
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,880
There are a lot of ways that we
can fool ourselves into thinking

347
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,800
we're doing better than we
actually are in life.

348
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,960
The old aphorism whistling past
the graveyard comes to mind.

349
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,160
You trick yourself and say, I'm
doing great.

350
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,240
But there always comes a point.
You can confess to an

351
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,080
ecclesiastical authority.
You can confess to your spouse,

352
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,960
to a friend, to your a a group,
or just to yourself in the

353
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,480
mirror where you've got to get
honest with yourself at some

354
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,560
point.
And I think that's the false

355
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,320
illusions of success the
revelators allude to you.

356
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,360
You've got to become
disillusioned, pulled apart from

357
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,320
the illusions you hold about
yourself and the life you're

358
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,880
living.
Every four year old has an

359
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,040
amazing ego.
They think they're the center of

360
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,040
the universe.
There's a natural disillusioning

361
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,560
process we're supposed to go
through.

362
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,880
It's healthy to find your
appropriate sense of smallness.

363
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,520
Or is.
The revelators define that

364
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,960
humility.
I think it was Alice Cooper of

365
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,880
all people.
It was trending socially.

366
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,680
This is Alice Cooper, school's
out for summer.

367
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,280
You were all singing that,
eating snakes heads and all this

368
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,800
stuff on stage and all that.
And he says once you realize,

369
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,200
when you really realize who
Jesus is, you stop pretending.

370
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,480
And that to me is very profound,
especially coming from someone

371
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,920
who you would not expect to say
that once you realize what is

372
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,240
going on around us.
And I think the Urantia book

373
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:03,080
presents reality so that we have
a good grasp of what we're doing

374
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,480
here and why we're here and how
it all came to be.

375
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,360
Then you, you really do fully
appreciate the majesty of

376
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:15,720
creation, as opposed to it being
more like a fairy tale where you

377
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,680
go to heaven and you get wings
and then you just spend eternity

378
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,840
at God's feet worshipping him.
That is so far from the truth,

379
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,840
yet that childlike impression is
what people hold on to.

380
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,720
And I think that's why I like
the Urantia book, because

381
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,840
intellectually it's satisfying.
Yeah, that's, that was the point

382
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,880
I was going to make.
I was, I've been trying to

383
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,960
backfill my unfortunate
education where I didn't learn

384
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,600
the classics like Plato's
Republic.

385
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,880
But so, you know, you try to
read something like Plato's

386
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,240
Republic, which is one of these
secular pillars of Western

387
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,480
civilization, but then it got
threaded into the message, the

388
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,440
gospel and Christianity and all
that.

389
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,480
In any given generation, there's
probably less than 1% of people

390
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,720
who read Plato's Republic.
It is very difficult.

391
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,520
It is very hidden, very
intellectual and abstract.

392
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,400
But that 1% has been enough to
get the lessons from it to get

393
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,840
translated and go out further.
I've begun wondering if the

394
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,560
Urantia book isn't something
like that.

395
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,240
So I, I think you make an
important point there.

396
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,040
They're giving us a cosmology
that just blows everything else

397
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,560
away.
They're like, let's talk about.

398
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,520
200 billion years ago when your
creator son 1 of 700,000 set up

399
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,360
his administration and you were
part of the Super universe.

400
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:27,520
Other point the revelators make
with regard to The Big Bang.

401
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,120
Of course, that term didn't
exist as a common phrase when

402
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:32,400
the main corpus of the book was
written.

403
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,080
So it, you won't find that in
the book.

404
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,320
They're, they're, they're
saying, look, you're seeing a

405
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,160
lot of things out there.
There are other things that

406
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,880
cause stars to shift to the red.
There is space respiration where

407
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,120
space itself expands.
And I, I personally think that's

408
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:47,960
a lot of what Hubble may have
been measuring.

409
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,240
But if you don't have a larger
concept frame to fit that all

410
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,560
in, and you don't have a notion
of, for example, paradise

411
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,800
gravity, some transcendent
gravity that's not just Newton's

412
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,840
gravity, you're going to end up
with a lot of very strange

413
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,960
rabbit holes you go down.
You're going to end up saying

414
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,160
there's something called dark
matter that accounts for almost

415
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,040
everything in the universe.
Yeah, because you don't know

416
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,720
about paradise gravity or
whatever.

417
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,520
You don't know about dark
islands of space.

418
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,920
So is this supposed to be a
book, A revelation of better

419
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,960
initial assumptions that a
scientist could take and then

420
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,880
proceed forward with their
theories and get much better

421
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,640
explanations for the
observations in their data?

422
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,160
And I think the James Webb
telescope is going to go a lot

423
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,680
of ways to substantiating many
of the Urantia book portrayals

424
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,520
of, of the universe at large
because we're finding galaxies

425
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,080
that, based on our current
understanding of, of science,

426
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,200
shouldn't even exist.
The current cosmological model,

427
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,520
they're like, this Galaxy
doesn't fit our model, let's

428
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,440
just see if we can squeeze it in
there anyway, because it would

429
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,360
be really uncomfortable to throw
the model out.

430
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,520
But that's the structure of
Scientific Revolutions, to quote

431
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,600
Thomas Kuhn.
At some point a theory, any

432
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,440
given theory, busts at the seams
and you have to throw it away

433
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,960
and come up with a new, larger,
better explanatory frame.

434
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,040
And the Urantia book claims to
be that frame that we could

435
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,960
inhabit for 1000 years with our
scientific, philosophic and

436
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,280
religious theories.
We're talking with Brad Garner.

437
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,920
He's with the organization
Symmetry of Soul.

438
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,440
I want to talk about that.
How did that come to be?

439
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,320
What is it?
And it's just judging from the

440
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,280
website, which is easy to find,
symmetryofsoul.org.

441
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,200
But what is that all about?
How did you get involved with

442
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,680
that?
And talk about some of the

443
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,480
people that are involved.
Chris Halverson.

444
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,960
Symmetry of Souls started about
15 years ago as just a little

445
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,520
kernel of an idea that actually
my mom who got me the Urantia

446
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,120
book, she started this as a
virtual kind of online weekly

447
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,680
radio at the time.
At that time it was on something

448
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,760
called Blog Talk Radio.
It started, it was basically a

449
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,480
group of people were at a
conference, some kind of get

450
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,600
together.
The details are lost to history,

451
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,760
but she was there with Chris
Halverson and James Woodward was

452
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,720
there and they were just talking
about what the how do we think

453
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,320
about this thing and found this
certain kindredness.

454
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,720
And so it's symmetry of soul
started as an offshoot of this

455
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,240
cosmic citizen weekly radio
Internet broadcast of let's just

456
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,360
make it an interview.
We'll talk to people actually a

457
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:12,880
lot like your program here, Jim,
in many ways.

458
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,280
But pretty quickly it became
clear that the where the

459
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,960
evolutionary path was taking it
was that Doctor Chris Halverson

460
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,720
lives up there in Boulder, has a
PhD in physics.

461
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,320
I imagine any number of your
listeners may be familiar with

462
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,960
the name.
He, he has a particular

463
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,720
interpretive take on the Arantia
book that is very studied and

464
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,480
very well considered and and
very holistic.

465
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,440
And so basically evolved into
something like a four person

466
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:43,160
virtual weekly study group where
we methodically go paragraph by

467
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,800
paragraph.
Not, we don't read a whole

468
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,400
section at a time and then talk
about it.

469
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,360
We read a paragraph at a time
and we try to take each

470
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,640
paragraph and say, how does this
relate to the whole?

471
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,480
We're seeing a little and and
we're interested in etymology.

472
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,080
We see a word here.
What does the word race mean?

473
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,240
I think I know what it means,
but I learned that with the word

474
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,640
race or the word love when I was
in 3rd grade.

475
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,800
What is what are the, how are
the revelators using it?

476
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,040
So it's an attempt to study the
Urantia book in a very

477
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,880
scholastic manner, but still
make it the language, the way we

478
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,360
talk, very accessible.
So we've been on the air for 15

479
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:19,880
years and we're still at it.
Chris is, we call him our lead

480
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,400
unpacker, like he's the one
you'd hear the his voice the

481
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,640
most kind of, if you were from
the biblical tradition, you

482
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,520
would call what he does
exegesis, like taking a passage

483
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,520
and then expounding upon it,
explaining what might be the

484
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,400
meaning of it.
And we all interact to try to

485
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,320
deepen our meanings of it and we
play off of each other and just

486
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,200
try to relate this back to our
lives.

487
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,040
It's essentially a virtual study
group, but we try to.

488
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,960
There's a certain flavor that we
try to give to it that may not

489
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,520
look like a typical Urantia
study group, if there is such a

490
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,120
thing.
I just think he's a a brilliant

491
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,200
he.
He's one of these guys that can

492
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,760
take the complex and make it
simple.

493
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,240
You know who else was like that
was Bill Sadler Junior.

494
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,520
If you listen to some of the old
tapes where he was in Oklahoma

495
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,280
back in the 60s and he the way
that he would, it was almost

496
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,560
like listening to Johnny Carson
or somebody of that stature.

497
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,920
Just a great command of the
human language.

498
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,880
And Chris is very much like that
too.

499
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,000
I want to delve into the soul
for a minute.

500
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:19,800
I turned to page 1217 and they
talk about the nature of the

501
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,920
soul and it reads, and I want to
get your interpretation because

502
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,440
I think this is a great example
of how the Urantia book explains

503
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,640
things and it reads throughout
the mind functions of cosmic

504
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,160
intelligence.
The totality of mind is dominant

505
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,360
over parts of the intellectual
function.

506
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,840
Mind in its essence is
functional unity.

507
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,440
It's almost like what some
people theorize is that we are

508
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,520
just cells in a brain, that that
all the individual planets are

509
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,360
nerve endings.
It's almost like we all exist in

510
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,600
a cosmic body.
God is this body and we are just

511
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,400
little parts of it.
I believe there's a direct

512
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,240
reference to the, you know, the
universe of universes being a

513
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,320
cosmic Organism.
I think that's right there in

514
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,000
paper 112 real close to where
you were just reading throughout

515
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,320
the Urantia book.
There's if you to talk about

516
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,480
mind, there is there's a
provocative statement that says

517
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,640
the universe is mind made and
personality managed.

518
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,240
Mind is central to the ability
for the universe is we know it

519
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,360
to exist.
Again, in your favorite, my

520
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:27,800
favorite paper 195, they they
reflect.

521
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,560
If it weren't for the activity
of mind and personality, the

522
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,360
universe would eventually become
uniform.

523
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:36,040
There'd be no spontaneity, it'd
be just mechanistic.

524
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,000
To say that mind emerged from
matter explains nothing.

525
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:41,080
Nothing.
Yeah.

526
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,560
Are we in agreement here?
That mind came before matter.

527
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,760
The mind of God was pre existent
to matter.

528
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,920
Matter was subsequent to mind.
But mind doesn't emerge from

529
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,720
matter.
Mind descends down and rests

530
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,360
gently upon matter to meet it,
to try to draw it upward

531
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,320
Godward.
I like the term functional

532
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,400
unity.
The unity of mind invariably

533
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,680
seeks for spirit coordination on
all levels of its association

534
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,480
with cells of will, dignity and
ascension Prerogatives.

535
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,200
But in other words, people who
are possessed of mind, their

536
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,520
mind seeks for unity and it
seeks for spirit coordination.

537
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,960
There's something bonafide that
is taking people and making

538
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,040
them, for lack of a better word,
be more spiritual.

539
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,880
There's a dry now a lot of
people ignore that and they,

540
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,520
we've been taught in our
society, that's just religious.

541
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,400
Something you ignore it is, is
no longer valid.

542
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,560
It's not science, as they would
say.

543
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,640
The revelators would even point
out in another one of my

544
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,240
favourites, Paper 65, you can
see echoes of this attempt at

545
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,280
functional unity even in the
animal and plant Kingdom any

546
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,080
what people would call natural
selection, what they refer to as

547
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,840
the environmental adjustment,
the organismal adaptation and

548
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,520
augmented life realization.
Even animals have striving for

549
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,320
perfection.
Now they're not self-conscious

550
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,080
beings with personalities,
they're just reflective of

551
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,360
something of of the local
universe, mother spirit.

552
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,920
But even in animals attempts to
better their circumstances and

553
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,400
build a better nest and adapt,
that is a striving for some kind

554
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,880
of unity on that basal animal
level.

555
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,960
So how much more must it be with
us, and how much more than us

556
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,800
must it be with high spirit
beings?

557
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,520
They said there's a great line
in the Aranta book where it says

558
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,680
human beings are a lot like
atoms.

559
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,240
We cluster.
Right, we or, you know, cluster,

560
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,760
we huddle, we, we do all sorts
of.

561
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,360
Things we huddle, Yeah.
It's one it's not surprising

562
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,760
that you can find patterns on
high patterns at our level and

563
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,840
patterns all the way down to the
atom like the universe is

564
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,600
patterned it it starts with the
I am and the father son spirit

565
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,080
like these patterns of 137.
They they downstep all the way

566
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,080
through and it makes the
universe comprehensible.

567
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,120
Here's a good one.
The material mind of mortal man

568
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,560
is the cosmic gloom that carries
the maracha fabrics on which the

569
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,000
indwelling thought adjuster
threads the spirit patterns of

570
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,120
the universe, character of
enduring values and divine

571
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,200
meanings.
Just the writing is incredible.

572
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,360
It's and the consistency too.
You just quoted something from

573
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,720
somewhere around again, paper
112.

574
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,000
But the weaving analogy, there
it goes all the way back to one

575
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,400
of the first paragraphs in the
book.

576
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,800
They describe the warp of
Marancha as spiritual.

577
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,320
Its woof is physical.
So there's like 2 places

578
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,400
separated by hundreds of pages
where they bring in this weaving

579
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,760
analogy as a hint to us of how
you might think about the soul

580
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,320
in a very analogous kind of way.
It's just a, it's just an

581
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:39,720
analogy.
It's not literal.

582
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,080
Says the human personality as
identified with mind and spirit,

583
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,320
held together in functional
relationship by life in a

584
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,080
material body.
How many of us have said that

585
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,240
they've realized at some point
that we're not bodies with a

586
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,320
mind, We're minds with bodies,
we're spirits with bodies?

587
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,920
And there are plenty of
Christian theologians.

588
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,800
A pastor of the church we
attend, I mean, I think he was

589
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,720
quoting CS Lewis.
He said you aren't a mind, a

590
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,960
body with a soul.
You're a soul that has a body.

591
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,520
All these no, turn it through
the looking glass and see it

592
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,560
from the top down.
You are a child of God being

593
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,480
called upward.
And there's a top down

594
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,360
influence, not just this bottom
up looking through the

595
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,000
distortions of the water
rippling on the surface as you

596
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,280
look from way down in the
depths.

597
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,040
But the The Rancher book tries
to show us like how you can see

598
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,840
it from the top down with
clarity.

599
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,240
If you had to predict Brad, when
do you think the Urantia book

600
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,560
will have its day?
For a brief time I growing up I

601
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,280
thought it might have been back
in the mid 90s, but it would

602
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,240
have been brief moment of
infamy.

603
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,480
There was a Dateline NBC article
about a certain group that had a

604
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,320
certain set of thoughts around
the Urantia book living out in

605
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,600
the desert.
Kind of following up a shaman

606
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,920
like figure and then Martin
Gardner, skeptic of his

607
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,160
generation, published a book
trying to be a takedown to the

608
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,960
Urantia book.
But it was unfortunately it was

609
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,640
not particularly scholarly.
I've tried to read it with a

610
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,360
charitable anyway, I thought
people that might get mass

611
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,280
exposure, but honestly, Jim,
I've begun to wonder if it may

612
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,560
not be in North America and but
like right now there is more

613
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,320
activity happening in South
America, Latin America and

614
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,520
Brazil, Colombia, the readers of
the translations of these books

615
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,760
and in the book into Spanish and
Portuguese.

616
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,520
It it's really lighting the
world up it.

617
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,280
It looks maybe like what the
Urantia book looked like in the

618
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,440
early 70s here, but they're
bringing in a very rich

619
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,560
Catholic, religious, family
oriented tradition to it now

620
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,400
that's going to bring its own
flavor and color.

621
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,040
They're reading like it may
light up down there.

622
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,040
The torch may be passed to South
of the equator.

623
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,560
Because I think a lot of people
are afraid to talk about the

624
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,040
book in public.
I I I'm glad you asked that,

625
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,960
because if there was anyone who
ought to be afraid to talk about

626
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,240
it in public, it would be a a
guy from the South who grew up

627
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,720
in the late 20th century.
You would not mention this in

628
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,040
you wouldn't think in the polite
company of Southern Baptists if

629
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,880
you wanted to still be invited
to Thanksgiving.

630
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,920
But I'll, I'll tell you 2 quick
stories just along that line.

631
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,200
My my mom read her the rancher
book.

632
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,280
She mentioned it to her parents
who were from the Deep South

633
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,640
Mississippi practically never
left the state.

634
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,840
She mentioned it to them and her
mom heard the argument, heard it

635
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,760
all.
They're Baptist.

636
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,200
And her, the way my mom tells
it, her mom listened and nodded

637
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,320
and she said, that's very
interesting.

638
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,560
And that's not something that we
can go along with or believe in,

639
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,440
but that's your thing.
And let's never talk about it

640
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,080
again because again, Southerners
are focused on politeness.

641
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,960
We shall never speak of this
again, my daughter.

642
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,320
But to your question of what's
the worst experience, I'm

643
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,320
smiling because when I looked
back on my life, I

644
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,160
recontextualized this and saw it
as a good experience right out

645
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,280
of college.
There was a fellow at the first

646
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,440
job I had out of college who was
really down on us luck.

647
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,800
He was a military vet from Iraq
and he'd put his life together

648
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,880
enough to get a job in high tech
as in the computer industry.

649
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,520
But he was just an emotional
wreck, had all these problems.

650
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,280
And, and he and I started, we
became friends, we became gym

651
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,240
buddies and we just spent a lot
of time talking.

652
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,600
And before you know it, it
drifted to the Urantia book.

653
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,560
And like, he vacuumed it up.
Like he's one of those people

654
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,280
who like sleeplessly read it in
three weeks.

655
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,240
I don't even know how that's
possible, but some people can do

656
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,360
that.
Like he really had a spiritual

657
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,120
hungering and it fed him for a
while.

658
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360
I'm like one, one more soul for
the Urantia book Kingdom.

659
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,360
I, I put a little badge on my
lapel.

660
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,560
But then a little bit more time
went by and he found his way

661
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,520
back into the evangelical
church, which is what he was,

662
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,600
what he grew up in.
At the time, in my spiritual

663
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,960
immaturity, I processed this as
a tremendous defeat.

664
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,520
I'd even took it personally.
I'm like, how could you?

665
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,880
All this stuff in the Rancho
book and now you're going to go

666
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,920
back to this thing.
But Jim, when I look back on it

667
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,400
now with the eyes of whatever it
is I have now in my mid 40s,

668
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,960
that man was a lost sheep who
found God again.

669
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,600
And he found it through a book
that he then later decided by

670
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,520
the he despised or thought it
was of the devil.

671
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,040
But God found him nonetheless.
And I have no doubt that he did

672
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,560
find the real God and did find
that in his evangelical church.

673
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,199
And I'm not going to take that
away from him.

674
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:25,320
So my greatest initial
proselytizing success turned

675
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,960
proselytizing defeat.
When I look back through the

676
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,639
years of of reflection, I'm
like, the man came back to God.

677
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:35,159
That's a win.
I I like the parable of the seed

678
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,960
where sometimes it falls in
places where it grabs soil and

679
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,600
it, and to me, the Urantia book
in the Bible are are completely

680
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,560
compatible because the Urantia
book is explaining what the

681
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,000
stories are in the Bible with so
much more clarity that you have

682
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,520
a much greater appreciation, for
example, for the Hebrew prophets

683
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,920
and what the Jews had to put up
with by carrying monotheism

684
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,120
forward.
I mean, in many ways it was a

685
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,640
blessing.
In many ways it was also a

686
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,240
curse.
The.

687
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,080
The continuity with the past
that revelation doesn't throw

688
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,360
out the past.
It takes the best of it and

689
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,120
upholds it and then carries it
forward with the same that

690
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,560
happened with Jesus.
It happens with the Urantia

691
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,680
Book.
The Bible is the single largest

692
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,480
quoted work in the Urantia Book.
It would be really

693
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,200
intellectually dishonest to
utterly despise the Bible when

694
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,400
it is the single most cited work
in the Urantia Book.

695
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,000
If you if you claim to be an
adherent of the Urantia Book,

696
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:42,840
that's what I say.
The Urantia book.

697
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,640
People read the Urantia book.
It's a cult.

698
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,200
It's a cult this, it's a cult
that.

699
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:47,920
What do you think of that?
What?

700
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,480
What would you say to somebody
who said that?

701
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,520
It's important to remember what
the word cult really means,

702
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,080
certainly as the word appears in
the Urantia book itself.

703
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,320
What, dozens of times?
Hundreds of times?

704
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,640
100 years ago, the word cult was
a completely neutral word from

705
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,800
some sort of moral or ethical
evaluation.

706
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,160
It comes from the word culture.
It's literally just the a

707
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,240
shortening of the word culture.
It's just the practices and the

708
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:10,960
habits of a given group of
people.

709
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,000
It's their culture.
Lately in the late 20th century

710
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,240
with the was it Jim Jones and
some other New Heaven's gates?

711
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,320
Some of these notorious
incidents, like it took on a

712
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,840
very negative connotation.
I have no problem having someone

713
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,600
say, oh, he, he's in a cult.
Like if you mean I will attend a

714
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,960
conference every now and then
and hang out with people who

715
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,080
also want to think about the
best things.

716
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,120
As Paul wrote in one of the
epistles, Think on high things

717
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,120
and we have a shared vocabulary
and a shared set of stories from

718
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,400
the Urantia book.
I can talk to people about Van

719
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,360
and Amadon freely when they read
the Urantia book and we can

720
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,680
reflect on it.
If that makes me part of a

721
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,720
certain culture, then sign me
up.

722
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,400
Of having thrown my mind out in
deference to some shaman who is

723
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,400
telling me what to think and
what to wear and what to eat.

724
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,040
No, I reject that because that's
just not what I do and the

725
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,280
evidence would bear that out.
Is there anything that you would

726
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,080
like to promote or talk about
that you would invite listeners

727
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,040
to participate in before we say
goodbye?

728
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,320
I would just say
symmetryofseoul.org, that's our

729
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,160
website, just all one word
symmetry of seoul.org.

730
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,440
You can go there and we'll be,
we're live on Tuesday evenings

731
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,040
and you can listen to a slide.
You can even call in and raise

732
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,400
your hand and ask a question if
you'd like to.

733
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,600
But if you don't want to listen
live, you can listen to every

734
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,400
past episode.
It's we have an RSS podcast feed

735
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,200
and we also have a lot of
written material.

736
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,200
We summarize every one of our
two hour episodes on our website

737
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:34,480
with a little write up.
So there's plenty of things you

738
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,560
can read there and search on and
we just have a lot of written

739
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,560
materials.
Check out symmetry of soul.org

740
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,960
if if you like.
If you care for the cut of my

741
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,000
jib, I guess they.
Might say, Are you astounded at

742
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,600
how much revelatory information
that's being ignored by science?

743
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,880
I'd say what astounds me the
most about the Urantia book,

744
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,040
sure answer is yes, of course.
It's not even that.

745
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,680
The facts fact, the continental
drift fact this this geologic

746
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,480
age fact, this thing about the
dinosaurs, it's the truth of the

747
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,600
Urantia book that the earth
evolves for the purpose of there

748
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,280
being will creatures who can
worship God and try to be like

749
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,560
him.
That is a great truth that all

750
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,480
the facts point to the same
truth.

751
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,960
The Urantia Book is not a
scientific intro geology

752
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,880
textbook.
It gives you just enough to whet

753
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,680
your appetite.
Or you could then go into a

754
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,920
geologic science and see it
anew, or go into a sociologic

755
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,840
science and see it anew.
But it's not a whole sociology

756
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,520
or geology textbook.
It's not meant to be.

757
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,440
It's a philosophic text.
My conversation with Brad Garner

758
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,800
and we sure enjoyed him stopping
by this time up on the Air

759
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,920
Rancher Radio podcast say some
good news to talk about.

760
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,880
I have my new book that is going
to be published probably in the

761
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,280
next week or so.
I'll have more information on

762
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:51,040
that, but you can get a sneak
preview if you go to theub.net.

763
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Theub.net, you can listen to our
first presentation where we take

764
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,800
elements of the book on the
concepts of the Urantia book.

765
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,320
The name of the book that's
coming out in a few weeks is

766
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,040
called Introduction to Urantia
Concepts.

767
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,920
I hope you'll check it out.
It'll be on Amazon and I'll be

768
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,920
sure to let you know when the
book is available for you to

769
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,440
download and keep a copy for
yourself.

770
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,320
I think you'll enjoy it and I
think it's something that you

771
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,920
can share with other people.
And you can also check out our

772
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:26,640
newly revamped website@theub.net
theub.net Tell next time if you

773
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,560
want to reach out, you can
contact us through the website,

774
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,320
but you can also e-mail us at
your rancher book

775
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,440
radio@gmail.com.
Jim Watkins and I thank you so

776
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,720
much for stopping by.